[michaelrpeskin]

> I don’t think Java makes people into bad programmers, but I do think it selection-biases for intellectually unambitious engineers. They learn exactly enough Java in college to pass their courses, and then get a job at a BigCo that doesn’t strictly require ever learning anything more than what they were taught in their “intro to data structures” course.

I think that's a fair comment, but also there's this perspective: I first touched Java 1.1 in 1997 in college, and only for a semester. Then for the next 22 years never looked at a line of Java, working mostly in C++ and Python plus dabbling in FORTRAN for high performance stuff that needed to be written there. I generally consider my self not intellectually unambitious.

Then I moved to a Java shop who specifically needed high performance math (well at least as high performance as you can get in Java, which is actually pretty good now). But we stick to Java 8 compatibility because we have some BIG customers who require that because of LTS on Java 8. There are some nice constructs that would help make the code more readable and modern, but when you need to support people and actually make money you do what you need to.

[tombert]

Sure, I am not claiming that you have to use every new feature every day 100% of the time. Obviously there are cases where you can’t upgrade for legal or compliance or “customer is just being difficult” reasons.

A lot of Java jobs aren’t that though, especially internal applications. A lot of places are running Java 17 or Java 21 on all their servers, literally have no plans to ever support anything lower, but the engineers are still writing Java like it’s 2003. That is what’s maddening to me.

[javanonymous]

I think it has a lot to do with work culture. Many tend to mimic what others are doing in order to not stick out.

At my previous job some were able to change that by consistently using "modern" features of Java. It inspired others to change and eventually we ended up with a good code base.

Be the one to start the change by implementing new features using good code. This will give others "permission" to do the same. Also try to give soft suggestions in code reviews or pair programming of simpler ways to do it (don't push too hard)

At my current job all of us were eager to try the latest features from the start, so we never had to convince new hires.