Apps/platforms don't work for learning Japanese. You just need to memorize the hell out of the vocabulary, spend some time learning the grammar, and most importantly IMMERSE. Watch, read and listen to content in Japanese.
People are reacting quite strongly to this answer, but it is unfortunately correct. OP has essentially created an application for memorising vocabulary, which is... fine, and it's an achievement to be celebrated.
But no amount of flashcards will make you a competent language speaker. There is no substitute for immersion.
What made it really click for me for me was reading. Lots and lots of it.
My suggestion is to start with short, easy stuff (stories for kids) and then move on to progressively harder material (short newspaper articles, essays).
I passed JLPT N1 back in 2013, and preparing for the test was just an exercise in memorising vocabulary and grammar patterns. What really made the language click for me was reading novels in Japanese. That alone helped me more than any amount of Anki-style JLPT prep material ever did.
Vocabulary is important, but it's much, much easier to absorb and retain if you learn it in context.
That matches my experience, too. I passed JLPT N1—then called 1-kyū—back in 1985 (!).
I did spend a lot of time memorizing vocabulary with flashcards, but I spent even more time on extensive reading—novels, newspapers, magazines, anything I was interested in, even if at first I understood little. The repeated exposure to vocabulary in real-world contexts really made a difference.
The “culture” around learning Japanese is so different from other languages. There’s a large amount of software engineers studying the language, so there’s tons of apps/websites that center around it (for better or worse).
The communities are also… particular. People tend to espouse certain deep beliefs or attitudes that you just don’t see for other languages (and I don’t think complexity is the reason; you don’t see that for Chinese or Russian or Finnish, to name some other notoriously hard languages).
Funny thing is, these communities aren’t readily visible in real life. At the Japanese language school I attend people are mostly regular people with regular lives and regular limitations. Online, you’d believe that everybody did Wanikani on Adderall for several hours a day.
There's no real reason to learn Finnish other than curiosity, so I'm not surprised there's no community around learning it. You can move to Finland without knowing the language at all, since everyone else around you will happily speak English with you. Hell, you can even get Finnish citizenship as long as you learn Swedish instead. And when a language is spoken by around five million people, there's no large amount of creative works only unlocked by learning the language either.
Renshuu provides fantastic SRS based tools for memorizing the hell out of vocabulary, has a huge bank of grammar lessons and a variety of grammar quiz styles to bed in the knowledge through practical applications. There are multiple quiz styles that are more or less challenging, including typing out answers instead of multiple choice questions.
Using just Renshuu and Wanikani I learned enough Japanese to be able to engage with Japanese content and for it to be actually comprehensible.
In the past I tried learning through immersion only, made no progress, found it demotivating and gave up. You need a baseline of vocab and grammar, and I don’t think it matters much where exactly it’s coming from (apps, lessons, textbooks).
Anki definitely works for memorizing the hell out of vocabulary and I also don't regret completing WaniKani, although I would probably choose an Anki only approach if I had to start over. At some intermediate level I stopped looking at the mnemonics completely and just did as many reviews as possible until it stuck.
I also got a lot of value out of wanikani even without completing it.
I tried and failed several times to get started with Anki before having success with Wanikani. The key diffentiator for me was the learning step. Anki is great for remembering things you were taught or learned outside of it, but using Anki to learn new things is very much a learned skill that Wanikani holds your hand through.
I have N2 and am working on N1 now, and feel I still have a very long way to go before getting to CEFR C1. Now I only use Anki with the yomitan and takoboto integrations to quickly add any words I look up, which seems to be working well.
I agree with you, but Anki is a generalized flashcard SRS memorization tool, not specifically made for learning Japanese, so it's not within my area of critique; I'm thinking of apps similar to Duolingo. It works extremely well because it helps you memorize very efficiently. One of the few applications that will indeed boost your learning by a lot. Anything requiring manual input rather than a simple Again or Good button choice tends to be worse. Any Anki deck requiring manual input as an answer should not be used.
My argument in support of the general immersion concept but against AJATT is that most people can't actually effectively use that method without hitting a wall. The amount differs for everyone but after some ratio (say around 50% of your waking hours) your brain will stop working as well and you need space to process what you learned. Finishing a long study session (say listening to a few YouTube videos then having a session on iTalki with a tutor, etc.) and having my phone in Japanese just sounds like hell to me.
Ajatt is absolutely ridiculous and I never understood how it rose to prominence online.
His result to efforts ratio listed back in the days was terrible and reading through is blog - back when it was a blog - was impossible. Everything read like an informercial and never got to the point.
Last time I checked it was a book club. Didn’t bother to check this time.
What's ridiculous about it? Long before AJATT was a site, I think most people would've told you that immersion is a good way to learn a second language.
You mention "result to efforts ratio," but I'm not sure I understand what this could me. In language learning, "results" and "efforts" are more or less the same thing. If you read a lot of books, you'll be good at reading books. It's not like there's some reading that is "effort" reading and other reading that is "results" reading; it's all just reading. For most people, the goal of learning Japanese is to be able to use Japanese in the real world. In which case I don’t see why any amount of time spent using Japanese should count as effort (but not results), since that’s the whole point.
I never paid any money to AJATT nor agree with everything on the site, but did find it inspirational in various ways early on in my studies. I'm fluent in written and spoken Japanese, and I do think living in Japan as well as immersing myself in Japanese media was a big part of that. I studied French in high school and college using traditional courses and I was never a great French speaker, I think in large part because I didn't do much with French outside the classroom.
I started off by memorising the hiragana table, then went hardcore. Got a simple manga (Hikaru no go) and a Japanese to English dictionary and just winged it.
Initially it took me a month to read an entire volume. It gets easier.
That was 20 years ago without any of the fancy tools people have today.
Writing and speaking are effective at establishing long term memories, it's why we do it for other things, but a language learning beginner has no idea if what they're writing makes sense or if there's any subtle mistakes in how they're pronouncing words or how they're putting them together, etc.
Language learning experts don't recommend you start speaking/writing unless you have a coach or have reached an intermediate level so that you can discern when something sounds native or not. That way you can self evaluate with recordings, etc.
It is an effective tool for learning, but for self-learning you're gonna be shooting yourself in the foot long term. You should only do it if you have, say, a partner that speaks the language and doesn't mind correcting you all the time.
For Japanese I recommend that you do learn how to write kana/kanji from the start, and even some vocab if you want. But stop there. Don't write sentences, don't try to talk to japanese people on those apps/discord etc. and wait until you're at an intermediate level to do it, otherwise you'll form some very bad habits that are very hard to undo.
If only there is a native speaker who is willing to correct your mistakes.
Output (writing and speaking) is a big beginner trap for language learners. If you can't afford a private tutor or moving to another country, my suggestion is just to skip it until you're able to understand daily conversation in the target language.
People are going to tell you making mistakes makes you improve. Which is true, if and only if you know what mistakes you made.
Agreed. For immersing at home, reading mangas/webtoons with an OCR translated layer and watching Japanese vlogs with dual subtitles has been effective for me.
marsavar|5 months ago
But no amount of flashcards will make you a competent language speaker. There is no substitute for immersion.
What made it really click for me for me was reading. Lots and lots of it. My suggestion is to start with short, easy stuff (stories for kids) and then move on to progressively harder material (short newspaper articles, essays).
I passed JLPT N1 back in 2013, and preparing for the test was just an exercise in memorising vocabulary and grammar patterns. What really made the language click for me was reading novels in Japanese. That alone helped me more than any amount of Anki-style JLPT prep material ever did.
Vocabulary is important, but it's much, much easier to absorb and retain if you learn it in context.
tillcarlos|5 months ago
I think that was Krashen’s input hypothesis. If I read a text in Vietnamese with more than one unknown word, it’s too much. Exactly one would do it.
Haven’t seen a tool doing that.
tkgally|5 months ago
I did spend a lot of time memorizing vocabulary with flashcards, but I spent even more time on extensive reading—novels, newspapers, magazines, anything I was interested in, even if at first I understood little. The repeated exposure to vocabulary in real-world contexts really made a difference.
gyomu|5 months ago
The communities are also… particular. People tend to espouse certain deep beliefs or attitudes that you just don’t see for other languages (and I don’t think complexity is the reason; you don’t see that for Chinese or Russian or Finnish, to name some other notoriously hard languages).
refactor_master|5 months ago
Hamuko|5 months ago
(I'm a native Finnish speaker)
gregjw|5 months ago
They might not be effective in the long run but saying 'they don't work' is an oversimplification, it depends what benchmark you're setting.
They're definitely worth using for beginning, but yeah, returns slope off.
ntlk|5 months ago
Using just Renshuu and Wanikani I learned enough Japanese to be able to engage with Japanese content and for it to be actually comprehensible.
In the past I tried learning through immersion only, made no progress, found it demotivating and gave up. You need a baseline of vocab and grammar, and I don’t think it matters much where exactly it’s coming from (apps, lessons, textbooks).
zaik|5 months ago
awirth|5 months ago
I tried and failed several times to get started with Anki before having success with Wanikani. The key diffentiator for me was the learning step. Anki is great for remembering things you were taught or learned outside of it, but using Anki to learn new things is very much a learned skill that Wanikani holds your hand through.
I have N2 and am working on N1 now, and feel I still have a very long way to go before getting to CEFR C1. Now I only use Anki with the yomitan and takoboto integrations to quickly add any words I look up, which seems to be working well.
coldblues|5 months ago
OneMorePerson|5 months ago
wodenokoto|5 months ago
His result to efforts ratio listed back in the days was terrible and reading through is blog - back when it was a blog - was impossible. Everything read like an informercial and never got to the point.
Last time I checked it was a book club. Didn’t bother to check this time.
jaredklewis|5 months ago
You mention "result to efforts ratio," but I'm not sure I understand what this could me. In language learning, "results" and "efforts" are more or less the same thing. If you read a lot of books, you'll be good at reading books. It's not like there's some reading that is "effort" reading and other reading that is "results" reading; it's all just reading. For most people, the goal of learning Japanese is to be able to use Japanese in the real world. In which case I don’t see why any amount of time spent using Japanese should count as effort (but not results), since that’s the whole point.
I never paid any money to AJATT nor agree with everything on the site, but did find it inspirational in various ways early on in my studies. I'm fluent in written and spoken Japanese, and I do think living in Japan as well as immersing myself in Japanese media was a big part of that. I studied French in high school and college using traditional courses and I was never a great French speaker, I think in large part because I didn't do much with French outside the classroom.
agnishom|5 months ago
SenHeng|5 months ago
I started off by memorising the hiragana table, then went hardcore. Got a simple manga (Hikaru no go) and a Japanese to English dictionary and just winged it.
Initially it took me a month to read an entire volume. It gets easier.
That was 20 years ago without any of the fancy tools people have today.
linehedonist|5 months ago
nodja|5 months ago
Writing and speaking are effective at establishing long term memories, it's why we do it for other things, but a language learning beginner has no idea if what they're writing makes sense or if there's any subtle mistakes in how they're pronouncing words or how they're putting them together, etc.
Language learning experts don't recommend you start speaking/writing unless you have a coach or have reached an intermediate level so that you can discern when something sounds native or not. That way you can self evaluate with recordings, etc.
It is an effective tool for learning, but for self-learning you're gonna be shooting yourself in the foot long term. You should only do it if you have, say, a partner that speaks the language and doesn't mind correcting you all the time.
For Japanese I recommend that you do learn how to write kana/kanji from the start, and even some vocab if you want. But stop there. Don't write sentences, don't try to talk to japanese people on those apps/discord etc. and wait until you're at an intermediate level to do it, otherwise you'll form some very bad habits that are very hard to undo.
trenchpilgrim|5 months ago
There's even a self-deprecating slang term: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%97...
raincole|5 months ago
Output (writing and speaking) is a big beginner trap for language learners. If you can't afford a private tutor or moving to another country, my suggestion is just to skip it until you're able to understand daily conversation in the target language.
People are going to tell you making mistakes makes you improve. Which is true, if and only if you know what mistakes you made.
RayVR|5 months ago
Speaking can only be improved by speaking. No amount of language intake will improve output.
jvuygbbkuurx|5 months ago
vincelt|5 months ago
AznHisoka|5 months ago
I remember reading everything from this guide almost 15 years ago, and remembered it really did help
adastra22|5 months ago
thrance|5 months ago
amelius|5 months ago
And if that is not possible/desired, perhaps talking to an AI can help?
stevage|5 months ago
That's what this tool helps you do.
aizk|5 months ago
Affric|5 months ago