[mmmllm]

One of the biggest factors for me personally was going vegetarian, and then vegan. I didn't realize it for 30 years, but it's hard to feel connected to nature, animals, and the environment when you are eating something you didn't kill yourself. Once I made that move, it's a beautiful feeling and a kind of connection to animals and the planet I never knew before. I wasn't even much of a pet person before that.

[tock]

Would you be opposed to lab grown meat?

I was vegetarian for close to a decade and felt terrible. Slowly reintroducing meat back to my diet(especially red meat) worked wonders for me.

[mmmllm]

I have no problem with the concept of lab grown meat, or 'cruelty free' meat as it's sometimes known. However, unfortunately it isn't yet completely cruelty free as it uses fetal bovine serum (FBS) to kick start the process.

Honestly perhaps you should have tried going fully plant-based. I truly think dairy is the worst of both worlds. It's too easy to lean on cheese which is not nutritionally balanced. Dairy can also inhibit iron intake which might be why you felt tired.

The good thing about a plant based diet is that it forces you to eat a ton of vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds etc. I try and follow the Tim Spector recommendation to get 30 different plants and vegetables per week and easily exceed that these days. I never felt better, and my blood vitals are fine.

(yes I take a B12 supplment as all vegans must, but B12 is artificially added to cattle feed anyway as most modern cows don't make enough)

All that said, I also just don't think it's natural to consume breast milk from another animal. There are literally legal limits to how much pus (somatic cell count) can be in each liter/gallon of milk. No thanks.

D

[seec]

That's my experience as well. I think vegetarianism is too much of an ideal and ideals can be very dangerous.

Also, we can't be sure yet since nutrition "science" is almost indistinguishable from quackery but I have the strong feeling that eating only plants has some dysgenic effect. When you look at nature, the smartest animals are predators because it allows them to "delegate" the hard work of converting low quality food to something packed with energy and other necessary nutrients.

Then there is the issue of food security and virtuous cycle, much of large agriculture depends on fossil fuels and it's questionnable if we should let go of animals provided inputs.

Perfect is the enemy of good as we say and vegetarianism/veganism might be one of those cases I think.

[southernplaces7]

>I didn't realize it for 30 years, but it's hard to feel connected to nature, animals, and the environment when you are eating something you didn't kill yourself.

Really? I'd think that living surrounded by a modern society whose benefits you fully enjoy does a lot more to really disconnect you from nature than some notion of not killing the meat you ate.

You're still fully participating in the daily destruction of nature, animals and living things just about as much as anyone who eats meat, you've simply removed yourself symbolically a bit more from one specific expression of it, so you can (entirely subjectively) feel as if it somehow makes much of a difference for any real connection to the planet.

[mmmllm]

"You're still fully participating in the daily destruction of nature, animals and living things just about as much as anyone who eats meat" - I mean, that's categorically not true. All else equal the meat eater has a far more destructive daily impact on nature.

I can also pet a dog with a good conscience, because I don’t turn around and eat an animal just like it. I don’t see one as a friend and the other as food just because society dictates that

[AaronAPU]

Interesting. For me, eating the animal makes it feel more a part of me.

[mmmllm]

Well, the animal died in an intensely stressful situation that you would probably struggle to even watch, let alone do yourself. I guess all that cortisol and stress is now also part of you.

[pabs3]

Vegans are just as disconnected, especially when they eat things grown in vats. What brings connection is to have a garden and kill and eat the animals and vegetables they grow there.

[mmmllm]

The point is that you're not relegating another sentient being's life to lower than that of your own. You refuse to accept the torture and murder of another species.

In doing so, you dramatically expand your empathy and understanding of what it is to be a living thing, and hence you gain an inner connection to nature and animals that is hard to describe. At least that's my personal experience.