I have aphantasia and psychedelics definitely give me visuals. However it‘s more like shifting and warping stuff I and not very pronounced. DMT however is one of the only things that gave me strong visuals, LSD in combination with DXM too so I wonder if it has something to do with the sigma receptor
The visuals you get from psychedelics and the visuals from imagination are different. Psychedelics seem to affect your real visual field. You're not imagining textures melting with colors and walls turning into liquid, it becomes what you see.
I normally have aphantasia, at about 2/5 on one those pop scales that show various versions of an apple. I can sort of rotate geometric shapes without the notion of color or texture.
But rarely, while lying in bed I get these full vivid pictures. It feels like a whole another visual field. I can't really control it, but these are fully detailed like a painting.
It's dizzying how fast I can imagine these when my mind decides to switch into this mode, and how it can switch from one painting to the next fully detailed picture in a fraction of a second. I normally have to strain hard to hold just a few outlines of simple shapes in my mind, evaporating the moment my focus wavers.
This matches my experience and I was quite surprised to find out other aphantasiacs have their “minds eye open” when tripping. For me psychedelics only ever produced a fractal overlay on top of what I was already seeing.
I wondered for a long time why everyone else experienced such strong visuals and eventually decided on my own it must be related to aphantasia. It’s nice to find out I might not have been a total crank with that hypothesis :).
> psychedelics definitely give me visuals. However it‘s more like shifting and warping stuff I and not very pronounced.
At least with LSD and psilocybin, that’s what visuals are. You don’t hallucinate things out of thin air on either one of those drugs, things morph and shift and wobble and waver and shimmer and so on.
At least in the dosage ranges I have explored, 7g dried mushrooms and 10 ‘hits’ of LSD which was probably at least 500mcg?
Ever tried 2CB or mushrooms/psilocybin and if so, how prominent were the visuals? Always found those to be more visual (for better or worse), particularly compared to LSD, but I don't have aphantasia.
My aphantasia mainly feels like a super power, that I process at the conceptual level rather than the visual level. I feel like it helps me focus on the important things and ignore the extraneous. It's strange to read it described as a 'deficit' and as something needing to be corrected.
I have aphantasia, after psychedelic experiences for the next few nights I see small poorly defined things when falling asleep. I don’t enjoy it and the idea of seeing things all the time sounds exhausting. I also have a slight astigmatism and prefer not to wear my glasses because the details of perfect vision are tiring.
I read much of that guide. I was initially led to believe that I have aphantasia. I certainly don't see things that don't exist - that would be an hallucination. I can imagine and describe it in vivid detail if I want, but it's not there - I don't see it in the same way I see the physical reflection of light on surfaces.
Similarly I don't hear sounds that are not produced by difference in air pressure hitting my ear drums. Again, that would be an hallucination. But I can certainly imagine sounds, again in great detail, including musical melodies and different instrument timbres.
Then, I get to the part about dreaming. I don't dream often, which also seems like a sign that I have it. That said, on some of my dreams, all sensations feel very real. Images, sounds, conversations, faces, colours, emotions... Those are hallucinations for all practical purposes though.
Except the fact that I have those vivid dreams seems to say I don't have aphantasia.
Not that it will make a lot of difference in my life, but where does that leave me? :D
I feel in my gut that this is fad-driven internet bullshit, and I would like to learn less, if it were possible.
> Dr. Adam Zeman, a neurologist from Exeter, receives a patient who can no longer imagine — known as patient MX. MX goes blind in his mind’s eye after undergoing surgery.
> Media outlets like the New York Times report the findings. This leads to an outpouring of new discoverers.
My understanding is that most aphantasics (like myself) can still see images while dreaming—suggesting that dreaming uses a different network for visualization. I have vivid dreams most nights.
Shane Williams (an aphant) hosts a podcast where he interviews people using a set of questions designed to probe their inner sensory world. From it I’ve learned, for example, that some people can taste food when reading a menu, or have a conversation with a deceased loved one and actually hear their voice. One of his prompts is whether guests can place themselves inside a photo of a carnival (which he provides); many say they can smell the cotton candy or hear the chatter of the crowd.
A favorite research paper compares brain activity in identical twin sisters, only one of whom is aphantasic:
The Neural Underpinnings of Aphantasia: A Case Study of Identical Twins
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.09.23.614521v2
Interesting. I'm somewhere on the aphantasia spectrum, but I very rarely have vivid dreams. Most dreams I would describe it almost like remembering an audiobook instead of a movie.
But I do occasionally have a vivid dream, and though I can't be certain I could swear that I remember more vivid dreams as a child/early adolescent. But by the time I was entering college I rarely remember my dreams and the ones I do remember are like those I described above with little visualization.
It's really interesting to hear about how others perceive these sensory experiences.
I've also once seen super-vivid (far higher fidelity than dreaming) images, while lucid during meditation, and able to "look around", so I don't think we can't (or at least not universally so) - but I've not managed to find a way back to that experience even years later.
On the graph for aphantasia where it's words. I certainly dont imagine words. If I were to stretch the truth about seeing an apple, I maybe see an outline. Certainly no detail inside, like the relfection of light off the apple.
Psychedelics, like mushrooms, do nothing for me. Mushrooms, I've never had a high better than say a light buzz from alcohol, generally nothing. I never get the wavvy or beer goggles from alcohol. I could be absolutely smashed, drink a micky in a couple hours and still pass a field sobriety test; and im a cheap drunk. THC doesnt do much of anything. Opiates take alot; any amount of morphine and nothing. Still feel the pain. One time I had Dilaudid. That helped with the surgical pain maybe 50%; from intolerable to tolerable. Nothing though, no hallucinations or anything. Maybe at some peak I was feeling a wierd flush or wave feeling in my body but nothing significant.
I interpreted it as more of "concepts" and not the word floating in space. That's closer to how I would describe my experience. With effort I can kinda force a static visualization but for lack of a better explanation it feels almost like a wireframe pre-render. Sounds similar to how you describe it.
Dreaming feel reminiscent to what an Audiobook feels like when thinking about the dream after waking up.
i have aphantasia and extensive experience with psychedelics
for me, as long as my consciousness is still in control, i have no closed-eye visuals akin to what others see. the more i lose control/consciousness, the more visuals i get but only over a certain (high) threshold.
dmt is the only substance that consistently gives me visuals but only at close to breakthrough dosages where i effectively lose consiousness. and they are never "things", they are always the known patterns, ie just raw signals and nothing meaningful - but my mind interprets them in whatever it thinks sensible.
otherwise i hallucinate like i dream or think - in an abstract, non visual way, the only thing i "see" are white flashes in nothingness
Curious - do people see a picture perfect apple when they close their eyes?
If you ask me to imagine a red apple, i can, but i have the image somewhere other than my actual vision... If i close my eyes I can't manipulate that space to show the apple.
There is a very huge spectrum of answers for this, ranging from complete inability to picture literally anything to being able to visualize it with greater clarity than their actual eye-balls.
Apparently it is possible, at least for some people, to "cure" aphantasia with a training technique is called "image streaming." I'm on the aphantasia side of the spectrum, and it has certainly help me see more vidid images in my mind's eye. Here is a link to the article where I learned about it, which also includes a video explaining the technique.
https://photographyinsider.info/image-streaming-for-photogra...
I have no idea if the technique you linked works, but anyone stumbling across this should be aware that it has very real and potentially serious risks - if rubbing them at all increases your odds of keratoconus, just think what 10min/day for months will do.
I have aphantasia and have been practicing meditation with the goal of improving the condition for a couple years. I have seen some minor improvements - when I'm in a pretty relaxed state I can see some visuals, but am not able to control the stream of images.
I haven't been working on this quite as much recently since there seems to be a connection with the meditation causing an ocular migraine with aura.
The more I read about aphantasia, the more I'm convinced half the people who claim to have it are simply of the anxious persuasion. The language used to describe imagination, or the perceived lack thereof, is pretty conducive to fostering doubt and confusion.
I feel like there's more to aphantasia than just "can you see the apple or not?". I can't for the life of me imagine an apple. At best, I get a very faint and dark picture of something resembling the fruit. Plus, there's one on the desk right next to me, so I shouldn't have too much trouble with the assignment, but here we are.
On the other hand, I have a pretty good memory (compared to my peers) and I can recall vivid (at least to me) images of the past. For example, I can still picture a scene of me and my dad picking apples in my grandparents' garden years ago, just after my grandmother passed away. I recall the cold November weather, the grey sky, the felled apples laying on the ground, some rotten. I can still remember what I was wearing that day. Similarly, I do dream a lot, most often accompanied with clear images of places and people, fictional or not. Even though I am utterly incapable of drawing these memories and dreams (I tried), I would still qualify these things as "image", and I can't fathom them being any clearer.
Am I just misunderstanding the exercise or is there something here?
I think I have a similar experience. I can remember scenes to some degree and my dreams are extremely vivid. I wish I could `see` in my mind like I do when I dream. But I don't think I can imagine an image very well. I certainly can't close my eyes and `see` it and I find it hard to believe that others can.
There is a simple (unofficial?) test for aphantasia, and I have tried it on many of my peers, it seems to be accurate.
_Close your eyes and ask someone else to read the instructions for you. If you really want to take it stop reading here._
.
.
.
Imagine a room with a table in it. Someone comes in, puts a ball on the table and the ball falls down from the table.
- What age was the person that came in?
- What hairstyle did they have?
- What was that person wearing?
- How big was the table? Describe how it looked like.
- What color was the ball?
... and similar questions.
In my experience, people with aphantasia will say "I don't know" or "I didn't pay attention" to almost all of these questions. For me personally, everything is "blank." There was no ball to see there, and the person did not have a face. I just experience "feelings" or "sensations" of the scenario, like in the matrix movie. At most some wire frames. Most other people would say, for example, there was a big brown table with metallic legs in the middle of the room, and the person that came in had a blue T-shirt.
[+] [-] CjHuber|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] loves_mangoes|5 months ago|reply
I normally have aphantasia, at about 2/5 on one those pop scales that show various versions of an apple. I can sort of rotate geometric shapes without the notion of color or texture.
But rarely, while lying in bed I get these full vivid pictures. It feels like a whole another visual field. I can't really control it, but these are fully detailed like a painting.
It's dizzying how fast I can imagine these when my mind decides to switch into this mode, and how it can switch from one painting to the next fully detailed picture in a fraction of a second. I normally have to strain hard to hold just a few outlines of simple shapes in my mind, evaporating the moment my focus wavers.
[+] [-] anp|5 months ago|reply
I wondered for a long time why everyone else experienced such strong visuals and eventually decided on my own it must be related to aphantasia. It’s nice to find out I might not have been a total crank with that hypothesis :).
[+] [-] quickthrowman|5 months ago|reply
At least with LSD and psilocybin, that’s what visuals are. You don’t hallucinate things out of thin air on either one of those drugs, things morph and shift and wobble and waver and shimmer and so on.
At least in the dosage ranges I have explored, 7g dried mushrooms and 10 ‘hits’ of LSD which was probably at least 500mcg?
[+] [-] diggan|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] gavinray|5 months ago|reply
So I think it's useful to talk about dosages here.
For example, I won't have OEV's until around 200-250ug of LSD, or 20-22mg 2C-B, or 3.5g mushrooms.
Marijuana gives me the ability to have closed-eye visuals ("mind movies") even in low doses, though I don't use it because it gives me panic attacks.
[+] [-] someothherguyy|5 months ago|reply
Why? Because two of those drugs are agonists?
[+] [-] bcraven|5 months ago|reply
https://www.hyperfixedpod.com/listen/hyperfixed/third-eye-bl...
(Presented by Alex Goldman from Reply All)
[+] [-] kybernetikos|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] cousinbryce|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] crooked-v|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] wetpaws|5 months ago|reply
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[+] [-] mdswanson|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] cassianoleal|5 months ago|reply
Similarly I don't hear sounds that are not produced by difference in air pressure hitting my ear drums. Again, that would be an hallucination. But I can certainly imagine sounds, again in great detail, including musical melodies and different instrument timbres.
Then, I get to the part about dreaming. I don't dream often, which also seems like a sign that I have it. That said, on some of my dreams, all sensations feel very real. Images, sounds, conversations, faces, colours, emotions... Those are hallucinations for all practical purposes though.
Except the fact that I have those vivid dreams seems to say I don't have aphantasia.
Not that it will make a lot of difference in my life, but where does that leave me? :D
[+] [-] card_zero|5 months ago|reply
> Dr. Adam Zeman, a neurologist from Exeter, receives a patient who can no longer imagine — known as patient MX. MX goes blind in his mind’s eye after undergoing surgery.
> Media outlets like the New York Times report the findings. This leads to an outpouring of new discoverers.
Hmm
[+] [-] i4i|5 months ago|reply
Shane Williams (an aphant) hosts a podcast where he interviews people using a set of questions designed to probe their inner sensory world. From it I’ve learned, for example, that some people can taste food when reading a menu, or have a conversation with a deceased loved one and actually hear their voice. One of his prompts is whether guests can place themselves inside a photo of a carnival (which he provides); many say they can smell the cotton candy or hear the chatter of the crowd.
It’s striking how little we really know about the variety of inner sensory experiences: Discovering Your Mind – Aphantasia and Beyond https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/discovering-your-mind-...
A favorite research paper compares brain activity in identical twin sisters, only one of whom is aphantasic: The Neural Underpinnings of Aphantasia: A Case Study of Identical Twins https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.09.23.614521v2
[+] [-] ajford|5 months ago|reply
But I do occasionally have a vivid dream, and though I can't be certain I could swear that I remember more vivid dreams as a child/early adolescent. But by the time I was entering college I rarely remember my dreams and the ones I do remember are like those I described above with little visualization.
It's really interesting to hear about how others perceive these sensory experiences.
[+] [-] vidarh|5 months ago|reply
I've also once seen super-vivid (far higher fidelity than dreaming) images, while lucid during meditation, and able to "look around", so I don't think we can't (or at least not universally so) - but I've not managed to find a way back to that experience even years later.
[+] [-] incomingpain|5 months ago|reply
Psychedelics, like mushrooms, do nothing for me. Mushrooms, I've never had a high better than say a light buzz from alcohol, generally nothing. I never get the wavvy or beer goggles from alcohol. I could be absolutely smashed, drink a micky in a couple hours and still pass a field sobriety test; and im a cheap drunk. THC doesnt do much of anything. Opiates take alot; any amount of morphine and nothing. Still feel the pain. One time I had Dilaudid. That helped with the surgical pain maybe 50%; from intolerable to tolerable. Nothing though, no hallucinations or anything. Maybe at some peak I was feeling a wierd flush or wave feeling in my body but nothing significant.
[+] [-] ajford|5 months ago|reply
Dreaming feel reminiscent to what an Audiobook feels like when thinking about the dream after waking up.
[+] [-] malthaus|5 months ago|reply
for me, as long as my consciousness is still in control, i have no closed-eye visuals akin to what others see. the more i lose control/consciousness, the more visuals i get but only over a certain (high) threshold.
dmt is the only substance that consistently gives me visuals but only at close to breakthrough dosages where i effectively lose consiousness. and they are never "things", they are always the known patterns, ie just raw signals and nothing meaningful - but my mind interprets them in whatever it thinks sensible.
otherwise i hallucinate like i dream or think - in an abstract, non visual way, the only thing i "see" are white flashes in nothingness
[+] [-] deepvibrations|5 months ago|reply
If you ask me to imagine a red apple, i can, but i have the image somewhere other than my actual vision... If i close my eyes I can't manipulate that space to show the apple.
[+] [-] icepush|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] kakokiyrvoooo|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] WrongOnInternet|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] Llamamoe|5 months ago|reply
I have no idea if the technique you linked works, but anyone stumbling across this should be aware that it has very real and potentially serious risks - if rubbing them at all increases your odds of keratoconus, just think what 10min/day for months will do.
[+] [-] calebh|5 months ago|reply
I haven't been working on this quite as much recently since there seems to be a connection with the meditation causing an ocular migraine with aura.
[+] [-] elric|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] aatd86|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] thrance|5 months ago|reply
On the other hand, I have a pretty good memory (compared to my peers) and I can recall vivid (at least to me) images of the past. For example, I can still picture a scene of me and my dad picking apples in my grandparents' garden years ago, just after my grandmother passed away. I recall the cold November weather, the grey sky, the felled apples laying on the ground, some rotten. I can still remember what I was wearing that day. Similarly, I do dream a lot, most often accompanied with clear images of places and people, fictional or not. Even though I am utterly incapable of drawing these memories and dreams (I tried), I would still qualify these things as "image", and I can't fathom them being any clearer.
Am I just misunderstanding the exercise or is there something here?
[+] [-] Jenkins2000|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] _ink_|5 months ago|reply
There is. I think the definition is still being worked on. Here is an overview, but I don't see your particular case: https://aphantasia.com/article/science/aphantasia-definition...
Since you can recall scenes you saw, it might not be Aphantasia. Not being able to create visuals of random stuff might be called differently.
[+] [-] e-khadem|5 months ago|reply
_Close your eyes and ask someone else to read the instructions for you. If you really want to take it stop reading here._
.
.
.
Imagine a room with a table in it. Someone comes in, puts a ball on the table and the ball falls down from the table.
- What age was the person that came in?
- What hairstyle did they have?
- What was that person wearing?
- How big was the table? Describe how it looked like.
- What color was the ball?
... and similar questions.
In my experience, people with aphantasia will say "I don't know" or "I didn't pay attention" to almost all of these questions. For me personally, everything is "blank." There was no ball to see there, and the person did not have a face. I just experience "feelings" or "sensations" of the scenario, like in the matrix movie. At most some wire frames. Most other people would say, for example, there was a big brown table with metallic legs in the middle of the room, and the person that came in had a blue T-shirt.
[+] [-] unknown|5 months ago|reply
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[+] [-] ITB|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] tt22|5 months ago|reply
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