I wonder if the extinction of most megafauna happening just before the advent of agriculture and the first civilizations is not just coincidence but direct causation. We spent ~200kyr with a lot of "easy" calories roaming around. So no need for complex societies. Once we caused our first "end of the world" overhunting with stone age technology, and they were gone, the only remaining alternative for the survivors was meager small game that had to be complemented with backbreaking work in the fields trying to raise more plant food. Thus agriculture got popular. With it the need for record keeping and sedentary lifestyle. Only then civilization could be kickstarted.
"[Men] lived like gods without sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil and grief: miserable age rested not on them; but with legs and arms never failing they made merry with feasting beyond the reach of all devils. When they died, it was as though they were overcome with sleep, and they had all good things; for the fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without stint. They dwelt in ease and peace."
It's interesting to consider these cause and effects, but I tend to doubt that over-hunting/extintion of megafauna led to farming and agriculture.
It's understandable that ancient hunters might have focused on the larger animals, some of which may also have been less dangerous to hunt, but other smaller animals like deer, bison/cattle, pigs, horses were also common at the time, and even today hunter-gatherer lifestyle seems common among primitive tribes, and agriculture/farming (e.g. Maasai - cattle) less so.
There are other theories for the neolithic revolution and switch from hunter-gatherer to farming lifestyle, including things like population density (partly by cultural choice), and post-ice age climate change enabling farming.
There was no need for complex societies anywhere ever. You can find primitive peoples in pretty much any environment on earth (hot, cold, wet, dry, etc). I think it’s much more likely there were complex societies we never heard of that have vanished over the centuries. 200,000 years is a long time (and that date only goes further back as our understanding increases). How long would it take for remnants of our civilization disappear if an apocalyptic meteor hit?
A complex society or a natural disaster (a la dinosaurs) wiping out megafauna sounds much more plausible than the equivalent of the primitive societies we see today.
I imagine that a massive mammoth would require the whole village to bring to the ground and back to the village. Conversely, the whole village isn't needed if it is just chicken on the menu tonight. Hence, I would argue that you need a relatively complex society if dinner is mega fauna.
I also don't entirely follow your point that goes from 'backbreaking work' to 'sedentary lifestyle'. The latter only happened in the post war years when we worked out how to have all of the energy we need on tap. Before then, life was hard, albeit not for everyone since we have hierarchies.
Essentially, it claims that modern humans and our ancestors starting with Homo habilis were primarily carnivores for 2 million years. We moved back to an omnivorous diet starting around 85,000 years ago after killing off the megafauna, is the hypothesis.
I don't think there's any evidence of that. Megafauna aren't that easy, and there's no general evidence of overhunting all the animals. People weren't going hungry because medium-sized animals were still around, and there are so many more of them!
Agriculture, at first, simply made life easier. You didn't have to be nomadic always looking for more food, you could just stay in one place. Your food was right there. It was awesome.
The problem was, it was so insanely successful -- you were having so many more children because of all the food -- populations shot up and suddenly there wasn't enough food anymore when you had a bad year.
So it's actually the opposite of what you're describing -- from what I understand, famine wasn't really a thing until agriculture caused populations to increase massively.
My argument (which I need to update) is that it was the primary catalyst for society to create the system of private property at scale.
However the roots of ritual society are more likely to be centered around the first sex strike around 70,000 BC, first proposed by Chris Knight in his 1991 book “Blood Relations”
The megafauna crash around 50,000BC then catalyzed the expansion of what was then a novel concept, of ritualized transaction, around more sedentary practices eventually leading to agriculture around 13000BC
"They chose sites that dated back more than 11,600 years, before the last of the now-extinct Ice Age megafauna vanished from the continent. The team only counted bones with clear signs that people had butchered the animal for food, like cut and percussion marks."
I understand what they're trying to do here, but is this the best selection criteria? You can basically tear down/debone small animal carcasses with your hands, so there's less likely to be cut and percussion marks.
Same in most places. Indigenous populations in Australia killed off all the large mammals except a few, in NZ there were a a number of large bird species which were all killed off soon after Maori arrived.
[+] [-] Qem|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] mikert89|5 months ago|reply
"[Men] lived like gods without sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil and grief: miserable age rested not on them; but with legs and arms never failing they made merry with feasting beyond the reach of all devils. When they died, it was as though they were overcome with sleep, and they had all good things; for the fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without stint. They dwelt in ease and peace."
Myths of pre ice age life were spoken of by plato
[+] [-] HarHarVeryFunny|5 months ago|reply
It's understandable that ancient hunters might have focused on the larger animals, some of which may also have been less dangerous to hunt, but other smaller animals like deer, bison/cattle, pigs, horses were also common at the time, and even today hunter-gatherer lifestyle seems common among primitive tribes, and agriculture/farming (e.g. Maasai - cattle) less so.
There are other theories for the neolithic revolution and switch from hunter-gatherer to farming lifestyle, including things like population density (partly by cultural choice), and post-ice age climate change enabling farming.
[+] [-] sisosibx|5 months ago|reply
There was no need for complex societies anywhere ever. You can find primitive peoples in pretty much any environment on earth (hot, cold, wet, dry, etc). I think it’s much more likely there were complex societies we never heard of that have vanished over the centuries. 200,000 years is a long time (and that date only goes further back as our understanding increases). How long would it take for remnants of our civilization disappear if an apocalyptic meteor hit?
A complex society or a natural disaster (a la dinosaurs) wiping out megafauna sounds much more plausible than the equivalent of the primitive societies we see today.
[+] [-] Theodores|5 months ago|reply
I also don't entirely follow your point that goes from 'backbreaking work' to 'sedentary lifestyle'. The latter only happened in the post war years when we worked out how to have all of the energy we need on tap. Before then, life was hard, albeit not for everyone since we have hierarchies.
[+] [-] chriskanan|5 months ago|reply
Essentially, it claims that modern humans and our ancestors starting with Homo habilis were primarily carnivores for 2 million years. We moved back to an omnivorous diet starting around 85,000 years ago after killing off the megafauna, is the hypothesis.
[+] [-] crazygringo|5 months ago|reply
Agriculture, at first, simply made life easier. You didn't have to be nomadic always looking for more food, you could just stay in one place. Your food was right there. It was awesome.
The problem was, it was so insanely successful -- you were having so many more children because of all the food -- populations shot up and suddenly there wasn't enough food anymore when you had a bad year.
So it's actually the opposite of what you're describing -- from what I understand, famine wasn't really a thing until agriculture caused populations to increase massively.
[+] [-] card_zero|5 months ago|reply
What, do downvotes mean no? I thought this fitted nicely.
[+] [-] AndrewKemendo|5 months ago|reply
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11895740/
I wrote about its impacts on society here:
https://kemendo.com/Myth-of-Scarcity.html
Previously discussed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39569747
My argument (which I need to update) is that it was the primary catalyst for society to create the system of private property at scale.
However the roots of ritual society are more likely to be centered around the first sex strike around 70,000 BC, first proposed by Chris Knight in his 1991 book “Blood Relations”
http://www.chrisknight.co.uk/category/menstruation/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_strike
The megafauna crash around 50,000BC then catalyzed the expansion of what was then a novel concept, of ritualized transaction, around more sedentary practices eventually leading to agriculture around 13000BC
[+] [-] excalibur|5 months ago|reply
TIL we're all megafauna. We should make this a rite of passage, when a kid hits 97 lb they get a megafauna party.
[+] [-] vmilner|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] chermi|5 months ago|reply
I understand what they're trying to do here, but is this the best selection criteria? You can basically tear down/debone small animal carcasses with your hands, so there's less likely to be cut and percussion marks.
[+] [-] DiscourseFan|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] rr808|5 months ago|reply