[Akranazon]

> In what ways, specifically?

Median wages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income?useskin=vector Average work hours

Purchasing power parity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...

Despite average work hours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...

Better youth unemployment than Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemploym...

> And which types of workers?

High-skill professionals, entrepreneurs, specialized trades, creative workers, young people, immigrants... and most other professions.

> Can we skip the transparent rage bait and personal jabs, though?

If you make nebulous complaints about "shitting on workers" without considering tradeoffs, you've made a feelings-based argument, so expect that kind of rebuttal.

[latexr]

Thank you for providing sources. Though you’re focused solely on money, which I think is a pretty poor measure for how “better off” one is (and was my original criticism of the article). Especially when you’re ignoring the percentage of people living in poverty and massive income inequality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentag...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_in...

Furthermore, making more money can be offset by having to spend more money for basic things like healthcare.

I’d say happiness is a much better indicator of how “better off” one is than how much money one earns. The happiness index takes a much broader view with several indicators (of which GPD per capita is but one).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#Interna...

You’re entitled to valuing different things. But the whole point of my original comment is that I find the focus on money over people to not be something to celebrate. Clearly you (and the author) disagree.

> High-skill professionals, entrepreneurs, specialized trades, creative workers, young people, immigrants...

Despite the ellipsis, that doesn’t really answer the question. Those definitions are so vague, they could all together describe a single person.

> immigrants

Are you really arguing, with the current state of the USA, that immigrants are “better off”? I’m somehow doubt the ones who are being grabbed and sent to jail without due process every day would agree with you.

> If you make nebulous complaints

It’s not “nebulous”. Read the article. It’s in context.

> so expect that kind of rebuttal

If you think someone made a bad argument, do better. That’s what the HN guidelines explicitly ask of us. Responding with a bad answer because you think that’s what someone did does not benefit the discussion.

Again, if your objective with a discussion is to “win”, there are other forums better suited for that.

[Akranazon]

I would argue that unemployment isn't solely about "money", but fair enough. I'm not sure how to respond overall. Because every time I debate this topic (which isn't a lot), a Europe defender will basically diminish the importance income numbers. Because "money is a poor measure of being better-off". In fact, money is quite a good measure of being better-off, and there is a lot of evidence for this. Europe has better public transportation, Europe has better healthcare, people are happier in Europe, etc etc... There is always more things. But the original discussion was specifically in the context of labor economics. Whether or not the US has single-player healthcare, that has a different topic. Average self-reported happiness numbers is obviously subjective and influenced by an infinitude of different things that are going on in one's life, which may or may not be related to labor. I also didn't find the other wikipedia articles very convincing. They show that ~2.0% of the US population is living below even the most generous measure of absolute poverty. I only see income inequality numbers as useful insofar as they give to average income number. I had cited median income so that the typical worker could be represented.

I don't consider "who is better off" to be a very good question. The answer is, the average worker is better off. My answer is therefore going to be vague. Of course, there are differences by industry, but do you have a point about that? Also, I am really arguing that with the current state of the USA, immigrants make higher incomes than immigrants to other countries. Saying that immigrants are treated poorly in other ways is just bringing up a political issue unrelated to labor economics.

[senordevnyc]

To be fair, while Europe dominates the top ten happiness scores, those countries at the top of the list are mostly all some of the richest countries in the world.

And there are 20+ European countries with lower happiness scores than the US, including France, Spain, and Italy. So living in Europe means you’re about as happy as Americans but also poorer…

I don’t think it’s as clear cut as you’re indicating.

[piva00]

Median wages while prices are higher doesn't mean much, Americans earn more but also pay quite a bit more in most products and services needed for living: housing, healthy food, transportation, healthcare, etc.

After experiencing the American work life I'd never trade my life in Sweden to earn 2-3x more in California, I'm sorry to say but it wasn't better to earn more in the USA, I could buy more trinkets but daily life was just not better.

There's a point where you should look past wages, what's the overall quality of life of living in a place where workaholism is rampant, stress from financial anxiety is constant, having to hedge for potential catastrophic events such as a health scare putting oneself into massive debt, losing your job in a downturn (or simply due to an industry going into herd mode and colluding on layoffs), so on and so forth.

Or you can keep using wages and money as your only guidance in life, I understand that's the only way most Americans can think about life. It's rather puerile though, as if simple metrics are the determining factor of a good life.

[Akranazon]

I'm not interested in debating the grab-bag of ways life is better in Sweden than in California.

I've said this before, but every "US vs Europe work" debate ends with the European patronizingly scolding the American for thinking money is the most important thing in life. I'm also not interested in that.

I am only interested in the labor market.

You can say the numbers don't matter, but then you've adopted essentially an unfalsifiable position.

Another factor to consider is the ease of quitting your job. In the US (at least, I have found), it is quite easy to quite your job and find a new one.

This matches the logic under which it's easy to fire in the US. Every cost of a regulation has a side-effect. If it's easy to fire, it's easy to hire. The article explains how American companies are more willing to hire for positions which wouldn't otherwise exist.

If you are not interested in that, then quit your job and don't work in a position which involves innovation. Which in America, is easy to do.