I want to copypaste this answer to so many comments in this thread but instead, let me reply to the post directly.
I'm going to travel to Japan (again) around late November this year. For this trip, I made a point to not return to a city I've been to already — Tokyo is an exception but I need to take my plane back home at some point.
Japan really has a high density when you go to the touristic attractions (most of those are inside Tokyo, Kyoto or Osaka). But when you go out of your way, you won't regret it. Peaceful streets, beautiful gardens. I would even advocate to actively go out of your way. Even if you get lost, Japan is very forgiving. People will try to help you.
Somehow, outside of those cities it kinda looks like the countryside everywhere, but as long as there is a train station it's still convenient to go there.
Also, Japan is cheap. People doubt me when I say this, but Japan is very inexpensive. When you do the "Top 5" on TripAdvisor and eat Kobe Beef every day, yes it sure is expensive but it also is an experience that isn't meant to be lived that many times.
If any of you read this and need help planning a trip or want any humble suggestions, feel free to contact me!
Food is cheap, but skilled labor is expensive. In the US, it's common to go out to eat because the reputation and wages of labor for food service have been crushed, but in Japan, asking another human to pour your beers and make you food and then clean up in an izakaya carries an appropriate cost. A friend who'd never left the US was shocked to learn going to teppanyaki cost almost $200/person... and the chef didn't even do any tricks!
The minimum wage seems impossibly low, but there's a human economy - no one who works doesn't eat. You can have fresh, nutritious meals and ingredients right from the field for pennies on the dollar practically wherever you go. The variety is mind boggling, as is the convenience.
The author interviews both Pico Iyer and Alex Kerr. I can't recommend these two authors highly enough. Iyer's "The Lady and the Monk" and Kerr's "Another Kyoto" are worth reading even if you don't travel to Japan.
I was in Kyoto last year for two weeks. There are still lots of places where you can be completely alone in nature or a garden or a lovely street. But "the Big Five" are off limits unless you love human traffic jams.
That said, Gion before 10am is practically empty. You can wander around and look at the architecture. And I know quiet places within five blocks of central Gion.
I have mixed feelings about even saying this. Please, don't go . But if you are a respectful, slow traveler, Kyoto is still doable.
Not only do you need to walk a mere block or two from the tourist line to find charming quiet spots, but there are tons of people that walk directly past beautiful and interesting places to get _to_ the jam-packed spots.
Small private gardens with interesting history and splendid views sitting nearly empty while a train of tens->hundreds of tourists walk directly past it per minute. Or small hiking trails within a stones throw of a packed entrance with a tiny fraction of the foot-traffic. They aren’t obscured either, just not the “main attraction”.
I was in Japan during covid, Kyoto was absolutely incredible…we sat in zen gardens for an hour and saw 5–10 other people. Mostly extremely quiet, beautifuly dressed Japanese women enjoying the scene together.
I setup my camera and toook photos at Kinkakuji for hours in different lighting situations while having nice conversations with various Japanese tourists. It was, unimaginable. I still enjoy Kyoto though. It is what it is.
Japan is where the tourist traps are really really touristy but everything else (99%) is lovely. I stayed a bit out the way in Tokyo and Kyoto (not drastically so: 15 min bus to a central hub) and those places seem like the read deal Japanese life.
I really hope you're right. Kanazawa and Takamatsu are some of my favourite places to go, and I'm planning on taking my partner there soon and I'd be utterly gutted if these places had changed.
Kyoto is one of my favourite places in the world. Besides the obvious "Kyoto" being on your doorstep, you only need to jump on a train for 15 minutes to arrive at Lake Biwa. Amazing to think that so much beautiful nature is a stone's throw away from such a lovely city. Itself only a bullet train away from Tokyo
Went to Japan for the first time in August (…don’t recommend…the heat is intense…) and instead of spending days in Kyoto and Osaka, we spent a few days in Otsu on Lake Biwa.
Highlights:
- The freshwater beach was delightful (Biwako Omi-Maiko Nakahama)
- There’s a public onsen that’s not listed on the official onsen association’s site (which only lists resorts you have to book long in advance and pay lots for): Spa Resort Ogoto Agaryanse. It has strip mall vibes from the outside but is a great local onsen on the inside.
- If you’re an American and want to experience cultural appropriation: take a cruise on the Michigan paddle boat
And, of course, it’s close enough to Kyoto that you can bop in and out.
I live in Kyoto. There are a lot of tourists, but they all go to the same handful of spots. I avoid those places as much as I can. Kyoto is an amazing city: clean, safe, convenient, inexpensive (outside the tourist spots), full of history, culture, and nature.
I was there in January. Maybe not the busiest season but honestly this issue is overstated. I was the only white bro in a kimono (and it was my Japanese friend who really wanted to do it). Most of Kyoto is completely unaffected by tourism, though these are not historical areas. We had great omurice at a very local place on the outskirts of town after finishing up with Kinkaku-ji.
It is not overstated. You have an anecdotal experience compared to plenty of written reviews of the situation Kyoto (and Japan in general) is facing with regards to tourism.
We arrived in Kyoto last night, and a few hours ago (very briefly) visited the Nishiki markets the author mentions - can confirm that they were awful.
Being middle aged Australians, we are definitely part of the problem described, but taking some comfort, after reading that article through, that we're part of that first 20% cohort. Also that wandering randomly and preferring to avoid crowds makes for a better experience, in the traditional (lived), if not the insta / tik tok, sense
We're also old enough to recall travelling before 'all this', and while I'm sure that same sense of nostalgia recurs for each generation, just (like many things) it feels unnervingly like we're rapidly approaching a tipping point of sorts.
Kyoto was our nod to a 'proper city' in our itinerary, fully conscious of the warnings about crowds, but mildly optimistic about our timing. We'd originally been planning a 2020 trip, which got kiboshed, but the upside was my wife spent an additional five years collecting duolingo badges in anticipation.
We opted to eschew Osaka, and from here are heading to increasingly smaller places.
Hiroshima was one of those places I felt should be visited by everyone. Or perhaps more accurately - especially by everyone who doesn't appreciate why they should.
(The museum there - if you turn up after 9am - almost feels like it is in fact being visited by everyone.)
I’m going to Japan in a week and I’m doing 1 week Tokyo, 2 days Nakasendo trail, 1 week Kyoto, 2 days Hiroshima. (Plus a day leftover I haven’t decided what to do with)
Do people have tips to find less touristy but still worthwhile places to go. Tourists go for these big places because traveling to Japan costs quite a bit and I’m using limited vacation time. Planning the trip in a location where the language doesn’t even have the same characters and I don’t have many familiar geographical reference points that coordinate with known cultural themes (unlike Europe) is already a bit overwhelming.
If this is your first and possibly only trip, do not try to be too cool. Go to the famous places you've heard about and want to see, especially if you don't speak the language and your ability to get local recommendations will be limited.
Just don't fully pack the day and save time for randomly walking around, especially at night when a not sober Japanese person will be more likely to try out their English and give a recommendation. Your ability to get information and meet people will exponentially increase with every single Japanese word you learn. When I lived there meetup was popular and international parties set you up with people specifically there to practice in a fun environment.
I'm lucky and got to study there and live there. But definitely had regrets my first time going by taking the advice of jaded people who lived there saying things like Tokyo Tower is lame and you can get a better view from some government building. They had all gone and had the experience and I just missed out.
Also,personally I would find a week in Kyoto 6 days too long and find Osaka way more interesting. But I also have been many times and only enjoyed the first time.
The main tip I have: Walk a block off the main street. Don't plan too much. Don't try to go to most of the main tourist spots, instead see neighborhoods. Go to bed early and wake up early - walk neighborhoods at 7am instead of 11am.
Forgot to mention, the uncharacteristically warm and long summer meant there hasn’t been enough food in the forests and bears have been coming into towns to forage. Lots of people have been hurt and killed by bears this year. Up 2.7 times according to the news today. Be careful when hiking anywhere secluded.
Haven't been there since before the pandemic but it was lovely. I think travel bloggers always act like everyone who goes there after them is some kind of idiot without taste.
When I travel I get a lot of enjoyment from slice of life kind of experiences - watching people on the bus or by the river or a bunch of school kids going to lunch with their teacher. And if you just wander around Kyoto you'll get a lot of that with a lot of historic beauty.
My friends are there right now and they seem to be having a great time.
Much of this article describes the behavior of relatively new travelers. As they mature, they’ll dig deeper, stay off the beaten tracks and, with luck, open up their cultural lens.
It's not a guide - it's a hard, fast, unbreakable rule, *especially* in Japan.
Obey rules. Follow queues. Don't eat and walk. BE QUIET.
Learning some of the language wouldn't go amiss either.
I've been to Japan over the last 20 years or so and I've become utterly INFURIATED at tourists from pretty much every country. Yanks and Chinese are loud and obnoxious, Aussies (my group) are woefully uncouth. Interestingly I don't have much of a general impression of European travellers.
[+] [-] Pooge|5 months ago|reply
I'm going to travel to Japan (again) around late November this year. For this trip, I made a point to not return to a city I've been to already — Tokyo is an exception but I need to take my plane back home at some point.
Japan really has a high density when you go to the touristic attractions (most of those are inside Tokyo, Kyoto or Osaka). But when you go out of your way, you won't regret it. Peaceful streets, beautiful gardens. I would even advocate to actively go out of your way. Even if you get lost, Japan is very forgiving. People will try to help you.
Somehow, outside of those cities it kinda looks like the countryside everywhere, but as long as there is a train station it's still convenient to go there.
Also, Japan is cheap. People doubt me when I say this, but Japan is very inexpensive. When you do the "Top 5" on TripAdvisor and eat Kobe Beef every day, yes it sure is expensive but it also is an experience that isn't meant to be lived that many times.
If any of you read this and need help planning a trip or want any humble suggestions, feel free to contact me!
[+] [-] washadjeffmad|5 months ago|reply
The minimum wage seems impossibly low, but there's a human economy - no one who works doesn't eat. You can have fresh, nutritious meals and ingredients right from the field for pennies on the dollar practically wherever you go. The variety is mind boggling, as is the convenience.
[+] [-] johngossman|5 months ago|reply
I was in Kyoto last year for two weeks. There are still lots of places where you can be completely alone in nature or a garden or a lovely street. But "the Big Five" are off limits unless you love human traffic jams.
That said, Gion before 10am is practically empty. You can wander around and look at the architecture. And I know quiet places within five blocks of central Gion.
I have mixed feelings about even saying this. Please, don't go . But if you are a respectful, slow traveler, Kyoto is still doable.
[+] [-] banashark|5 months ago|reply
Small private gardens with interesting history and splendid views sitting nearly empty while a train of tens->hundreds of tourists walk directly past it per minute. Or small hiking trails within a stones throw of a packed entrance with a tiny fraction of the foot-traffic. They aren’t obscured either, just not the “main attraction”.
I was genuinely baffled.
[+] [-] bamboozled|5 months ago|reply
I setup my camera and toook photos at Kinkakuji for hours in different lighting situations while having nice conversations with various Japanese tourists. It was, unimaginable. I still enjoy Kyoto though. It is what it is.
[+] [-] trenchpilgrim|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] hshdhdhehd|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] Incipient|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] djtango|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] klabetron|5 months ago|reply
Went to Japan for the first time in August (…don’t recommend…the heat is intense…) and instead of spending days in Kyoto and Osaka, we spent a few days in Otsu on Lake Biwa.
Highlights:
- The freshwater beach was delightful (Biwako Omi-Maiko Nakahama) - There’s a public onsen that’s not listed on the official onsen association’s site (which only lists resorts you have to book long in advance and pay lots for): Spa Resort Ogoto Agaryanse. It has strip mall vibes from the outside but is a great local onsen on the inside. - If you’re an American and want to experience cultural appropriation: take a cruise on the Michigan paddle boat
And, of course, it’s close enough to Kyoto that you can bop in and out.
[+] [-] openuntil3am|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] trzy|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] Klonoar|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] Jedd|5 months ago|reply
Being middle aged Australians, we are definitely part of the problem described, but taking some comfort, after reading that article through, that we're part of that first 20% cohort. Also that wandering randomly and preferring to avoid crowds makes for a better experience, in the traditional (lived), if not the insta / tik tok, sense
We're also old enough to recall travelling before 'all this', and while I'm sure that same sense of nostalgia recurs for each generation, just (like many things) it feels unnervingly like we're rapidly approaching a tipping point of sorts.
Kyoto was our nod to a 'proper city' in our itinerary, fully conscious of the warnings about crowds, but mildly optimistic about our timing. We'd originally been planning a 2020 trip, which got kiboshed, but the upside was my wife spent an additional five years collecting duolingo badges in anticipation.
We opted to eschew Osaka, and from here are heading to increasingly smaller places.
Hiroshima was one of those places I felt should be visited by everyone. Or perhaps more accurately - especially by everyone who doesn't appreciate why they should.
(The museum there - if you turn up after 9am - almost feels like it is in fact being visited by everyone.)
[+] [-] rPlayer6554|5 months ago|reply
Do people have tips to find less touristy but still worthwhile places to go. Tourists go for these big places because traveling to Japan costs quite a bit and I’m using limited vacation time. Planning the trip in a location where the language doesn’t even have the same characters and I don’t have many familiar geographical reference points that coordinate with known cultural themes (unlike Europe) is already a bit overwhelming.
[+] [-] Larrikin|5 months ago|reply
Just don't fully pack the day and save time for randomly walking around, especially at night when a not sober Japanese person will be more likely to try out their English and give a recommendation. Your ability to get information and meet people will exponentially increase with every single Japanese word you learn. When I lived there meetup was popular and international parties set you up with people specifically there to practice in a fun environment.
I'm lucky and got to study there and live there. But definitely had regrets my first time going by taking the advice of jaded people who lived there saying things like Tokyo Tower is lame and you can get a better view from some government building. They had all gone and had the experience and I just missed out.
Also,personally I would find a week in Kyoto 6 days too long and find Osaka way more interesting. But I also have been many times and only enjoyed the first time.
[+] [-] Schiendelman|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] SenHeng|5 months ago|reply
https://www.go-nagano.net/en/trip-idea/id16492
Forgot to mention, the uncharacteristically warm and long summer meant there hasn’t been enough food in the forests and bears have been coming into towns to forage. Lots of people have been hurt and killed by bears this year. Up 2.7 times according to the news today. Be careful when hiking anywhere secluded.
[+] [-] renewiltord|5 months ago|reply
When I travel I get a lot of enjoyment from slice of life kind of experiences - watching people on the bus or by the river or a bunch of school kids going to lunch with their teacher. And if you just wander around Kyoto you'll get a lot of that with a lot of historic beauty.
My friends are there right now and they seem to be having a great time.
[+] [-] ljsocal|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] ninjin-carh|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] netsharc|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] ramon156|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] Incipient|5 months ago|reply
It's not a guide - it's a hard, fast, unbreakable rule, *especially* in Japan.
Obey rules. Follow queues. Don't eat and walk. BE QUIET.
Learning some of the language wouldn't go amiss either.
I've been to Japan over the last 20 years or so and I've become utterly INFURIATED at tourists from pretty much every country. Yanks and Chinese are loud and obnoxious, Aussies (my group) are woefully uncouth. Interestingly I don't have much of a general impression of European travellers.
Part rant, part instruction.
[+] [-] mock-possum|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] CyberDildonics|5 months ago|reply
-Tourists rent kimonos for $20 a day.
-Lots of people are there.
-Guy quoted in the article doesn't like it.
[+] [-] zeknife|5 months ago|reply