[materielle]

My problems with ORMs is that they are a solution in search of a problem most of the time.

We already have an abstraction for interfacing with the DBMS. It’s called SQL, and it works perfectly fine.

[bakugo]

> We already have an abstraction for interfacing with the DBMS. It’s called SQL, and it works perfectly fine.

ORMs are not an abstraction to interface with the DBMS. They are an abstraction to map the data in your database to objects in your code and vice versa. It's literally in the name.

Feels like a lot of anti-ORM sentiment originates from people who literally don't know what the acronym means.

[lelanthran]

> They are an abstraction to map the data in your database to objects in your code and vice versa.

Maybe that's part of the problem - you're trying to map tabular data in your database to hierarchical data in your programming language.

Of course there's going to be all kinds of pain when pounding square pegs into round holes. Getting a better hammer (i.e. a better ORM) isn't necessarily going to help.

[gitaarik]

The way it integrates into Django is more than just an abstraction to SQL. It's also an abstraction to your table schema, mapped to your model. In short, it's the Pythonic way of fetching data from your models in Django.

It allows for functional programming, as in building queries upon other queries. And predefined filters, easily combining queries, etc. And much more.

Of course you don't need all of that. But in a big project, where you might query some particular tables a lot of the times, and there are common joins you make between tables, then sometimes it is nice to have predefined models and columns and relations, so you need less verbosity when building the queries.

You do of course need to learn a new tool to build queries, but it does pay off in some cases.

[kdazzle]

Mostly, I think, the problem is SQL injection, and raw SQL is a great place for people to forget to escape their strings.

[jaggirs]

ORM's are not the only solution to SQL injection, pyscopg for example handles string escaping etc for you.