[itg]

Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android, despite most of the people I know using iPhones. If I can't do this anymore, I may as well switch and be able to use iMessage and FaceTime with them.

[AnonymousPlanet]

Android is losing a unique selling point. This will have an impact on what a techie may recommend to a non-techie in the future, because everything is beige now.

I have the feeling Google has given up on using nerds as beachheads. The market is saturated enough and they don't need us anymore to do grass roots spreading of their products. It's the same with Youtube. As long as there were enough people who were unencumbered by ads because of their ad block and kept spreading links, the importance of Youtube was growing. After market saturation that vehicle isn't necessary anymore and they can squeeze them out.

[echelon]

This is unacceptable.

Google needs to be broken up. Apple too.

The lack of antitrust enforcement is a clown show.

We have no choice in the most important computing category in the world. It's a duopoly and they have everyone in straightjackets - consumers, companies, competitors, governments, ...

A huge percentage of the world's thoughts and economy flow through mobile. And two companies own it.

Ma Bell was nothing compared to this.

[crossroadsguy]

Yes! Android doesn’t need an USP. Not anymore now that we have a stable equilibrium of this perfect duopoly.

[XorNot]

F-droid routinely delivers me higher quality, more reliable apps that do exactly what I need then to do too.

It's become my go-to for "I need a utility for X task".

[Grimblewald]

Same here. F droid gives clean functional and reliable apps while playstore is a dumpsterfire.

[jamesnorden]

>I may as well switch and be able to use iMessage and FaceTime with them

I, too, love vendor lockin.

[scbzzzzz]

It is not just that. In my case , everyone around me are using iphone . I made the sacrifice to not easily connect with them and use android so that i have freedom ( to install, customise what ever). Once that freedom aspect is taken away. There is no reason for me to make that sacrifice.

Until EU's cross compatibility between messaging apps is passed, we are forced to be in vendor lockin.

[zylstra]

I have no idea why iMessage and FaceTime are draws when Signal is available.

[estimator7292]

I mean, we have mandatory Play Store services, so the experience on android is not significantly less locked-in.

[vivalahn]

Another road that leads to BBM it seems.

It’s utterly bizarre how BBM could have been the iMessage and WhatsApp and who knows what else. But rich out-of-touch people thinking exclusivity is a perk in a commodities market just shows how business savvy and wealth are in reality disconnected from eachother.

[xandrius]

Check UbuntuTouch, it's really a nice third option. The OS is refreshing and the dev community active.

We do not have to choose the lesser of two evils this time.

[MattyRad]

I glanced at Ubuntu Touch, but its device compatibility looked severely lacking (https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/).... I have old Pixel phones I could potentially try it out on, but the last Pixel phone that is officially supported is the 3a. So that is a bummer.

[doug_durham]

"Refreshing" is an interesting adjective to use. I don't want a refreshing OS. I want a rock stable OS that sips battery.

[cons0le]

I wonder if banking and messaging apps will work on it in the future

[IshKebab]

Yeah... Does it support WhatsApp? If not that's a deal-breaker in most of the world.

[fsflover]

Ubuntu touch has a locked-down filesystem, like Android does. Mobian, PureOS and postmarketOS behave much more like regular GNU/Linux.

[smm11]

Not a lot of life left in Pixel 3 phones.

[Fergusonb]

I just switched to the iPhone with the new cycle, explicitly because of this news.

Sideloading was the killer feature for me as well.

[drnick1]

> I just switched to the iPhone with the new cycle, explicitly because of this news.

And guess what, sideloading has never been allowed on iPhones.

So you just went from bad to worse. The only rational option for tech-minded people nowadays is to buy a device that supports Lineage or Graphene (ironically Pixels are good for this) and to replace the stock OS.

[gdulli]

Then you'd be rewarding the company that pioneered and normalized taking away these rights. The next rights you'll lose will probably originate on Apple again years before Google takes them away too.

[rs186]

It doesn't make any difference anyway, does it?

Then I might as well treat myself with better hardware & ecosystem.

[dangus]

I think this isn’t true at all, before the iPhone existed cellular carriers controlled software on consumer phones.

Remember when GPS navigation was a $5/month app that was a cellular plan addon?

[jadbox]

You can still install apps outside the play store, but the developer does need to verify their signing information. Effectively this means that any app you install must have a paper trail to the originating developer, even if its not on the app store. On one hand, I can see the need for this to track down virus creators, but on the other, it provides Google transparency and control over side loaded app. It IS a concerning move, but currently this is far from 'killing' non-appstore apps for most of the market.

[AdmiralAsshat]

So let's pick a random example app that might be popular on F-Droid today. Oh, I dunno...newpipe.

Given that Google both owns Android/Google Play Store and YouTube: what do you think they would do with the developer information of someone who makes an app that skirts their ad-model for YouTube?

[GeekyBear]

Google is following the same game plan we saw when they decided that the full version of uBlock Origin (the version that is still effective on YouTube) should no longer be allowed within their browser monopoly.

The fact that there was a temporary workaround didn't change the endgame.

It's just there to boil the frog more slowly and keep you from hopping out of the pot.

It's the same game plan Microsoft used to force users to use an online Microsoft account to log onto their local computer.

Temporary workarounds are not the same thing as publicly abandoning the policy.

[detectivestory]

From a quick glance at /r/GooglePlayDeveloper/ it looks like Google is just as interested in killing playstore apps! It seems that they only want to support the existing larger apps now. I think they are giving a clear message to developers that its not really worth developing for that platform anymore. I think we will all agree that the playstore needed a purge but they seem to be making it impossible for any new solo devs at this point.

[JohnFen]

> currently this is far from 'killing' non-appstore apps for most of the market.

It means that Android is no longer suitable for my own private dev projects.

[msh]

It also makes it easy for google to blacklist a developer, if for example the trump administration don’t like them (the same way apple removing apps documenting ICE).

[blaze33]

Pretty sure virus creators could just pick a real ID leaked by the "adult only logins" shenanigans, whereas legit app developers probably wouldn't want to commit identity fraud.

[omnimus]

Yeah... no. This is normal with desktop computers. Let's stop handholding people. If I trust the source, I trust the domain... I want to be able to install app from its source.

Googles/Apples argument would have been much stronger if their stores managed to not allow scams/malware/bad apps to their store but this is not the case. They want to have the full control without having the full responsibility. It's just powergrab.

[close04]

> need for this to track down virus creators

I think they’re just going to track down a random person in a random country who put their name down in exchange for a modest sum of money. That’s if there’s even a real person at the other end. Do you really think that malware creators will stumble on this?

This has to be about controlling apps that are inconvenient to Google. Those that are used to bypass Google’s control and hits their ad revenue or data collection efforts.

[rpdillon]

It's killing F-Droid, which is the only place I want to sideload from.

[j45]

It makes sense for average users to have identifiable traceability.

Developers, and power users often pre-date these kinds of smartphones.

[Buttons840]

Switching to iPhone will make it even more obvious there is an unhealthy monopoly, so that's nice. If there's no good reason to choose Android, why not?

[goku12]

What we really need is a fair alternative to both these abuse platforms. Choosing an unfamiliar abuse over a familiar abuse isn't exactly the smartest move. The switch over to a free(dom) platform like plain Linux must happen even if we have to make some temporary sacrifices like the loss of mobile banking facilities. It can't be worse than using a feature phone, can it? The app ecosystem will eventually attain parity if the platform achieves popularity.

[1vuio0pswjnm7]

"If I can't do this anymore..."

How will Google force Android users to "update" so sideloadinng can be prevented

Non-updated versions of Android running non-updated versions of sideloaded apps will not have the restriction

Another example of how not every "update" is for "security" and "updates" should be optional

The computer owner chooses one version of an operating system, e.g., "I chose Android because I can sideload any app", but by allowing automatic updates, without reviewing them first, the computer owner agrees to let the operating system vendor change the software remotely to anything the vendor chooses. The computer owner goes along with whatever the vendor decides, letting the vendor take them for a ride

If the operating system gets _worse_ in the opinion of the computer owner, if it fails to meet their needs, e.g., "sideloading", then that's too bad. The computer owner chose one version of Android, but by subscribing to "automatic updates" they effectively chose all future versions as well

This is why I prefer BSD UNIX-like operating system projects where I can choose to update or not to update. Unlike the hypothetical Android user, the project does not decide for me

HN replies may try to draw attention to "security" and away from "sideloading restriction". However there is no option to accept "security updates" while rejecting "sideloading restriction updates". According to the so-called "tech" companies that conduct data collection and surveillance as a "business model" through free, auto-updated software, every update, no matter what it contains, is deemed essential and critical for "security"

Online commentators seem to agree that the computer owner should have the choice to install or not install _any_ software outside the "app store", so-called "sideloading". Perhaps this freedom to choose whether to install or not install software should also apply to operating system "updates"

[alex23478]

> How will Google force Android users to "update" so sideloadinng can be prevented

Google has the Google Play Services, which can be remotely updated via the Play Store, as has been done for the COVID exposure notification system [0]. Google's Play Protect already hooks into the installation process and could be updated to enforce the signatures.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_Notification

[1vuio0pswjnm7]

What happens if the computer owner disables Google Play Services along with the Play Store and keeps the phone offline

(Own experients conducted over the years make this a "rhetorical question" meaning I already know the answer)

Not every app requires Play Services and internet access

(Online commentators sometimes try to argue that all apps, even offlines ones, "require" Play Services otherwise they cannot be updated automatically, highlighting the significance of "automatic updates" in steering debates about Android. Own experiments show that many if not most apps work fine without Play Services and can be updated manually if desired)

Not every phone is used for banking or other "government services"

(For example, some owners have mulltiple phones. Some owners may have phones with older versions of mobile OS that may be used for experiments)

Not every computer owner is the same

(For example, most phone owners do not install any apps at all. Of those that do, most use "app stores", not so-called "sideloading")

HN replies are likely to invoke "security" as a retort to any suggestion of decision-making and control being placed with the computer owner

[SpaceNugget]

Automatic updates are pretty unrelated. Google can just release an updated version of google play services or a device verification API and everyone's banking/government ID apps will stop working until you manually update anyway. They have a pretty big stick to whack you over the head with if you don't update to the new version "for security"

[blurbleblurble]

I might as well get a landline/dumbphone and a small linux tablet.

[FranzFerdiNaN]

Maybe it’s because I’m European but I’ve never understood what iMessage even is or what it offers above either sms or WhatsApp/signal. And I’ve used an iPhone for the past 15 years.

[rkomorn]

For me, mainly: no international cost, no metered cost (other than data), no extra app like WhatsApp to install (but other party needs iOS).

Edit: that said, nowadays, maybe because I'm back in the EU, I use WhatsApp way more often than iMessage.

[observationist]

Refuse to participate in either walled garden.

There are no good reasons left to use either platform - you're basically paying an arm and a leg to rent a device whose primary purpose is to usurp your attention and plunder your wallet at every possible opportunity.

Use and encourage your circle to use Signal, so you're not limited to any given platform, or the political or ideological whims of the gardenmeisters.

Google has gone full enshittified with this move, might as well move as far and as fast away from all the shit if you're technically capable, introduce whatever pressure you can to signal that there's a desperate need in the smartphone market for something clean and honest.

[musictubes]

“There are no good reasons” really? One of my favorite things about iOS/ipados is the incredible selection of music creation apps. My iPad is loaded with synths, sequencers, and effects. AUM in particular is an amazing program for live performances mixing both software and hardware using a touch interface.

Many, but not all, of the programs I use on iPad are also available on Mac and Windows at much higher prices. That alone is reason enough to use a iPad. Most of these apps can be run on the least expensive iPad and/or older ones.

Like it or not, computing appliances have led to really good software markets. The “clean and honest” software markets are either much more expensive or don’t exist at all. The optimist in me is hoping that Android losing some freedom might lead to higher quality software and some actual competition to Apple.

[hahn-kev]

Probably the only real benefit now is Firefox/alt browsers

[WD-42]

Firefox with UBO is still a huge win. But Orion browser is making progress. At this point I just don’t see a reason to go android anymore. If I have to be part of a walled garden I may as well choose the nicer one.

[treyd]

You could also use a thirdparty ROM.

[colordrops]

How long until AOSP deviates so much from features in 3rd party ROMs that it becomes infeasible to for amateur developers to maintain them?

[wiether]

And in the EU you can install apps outside of the AppStore on your iPhone!

[gumby271]

But not outside of Apple's control, they have a very similar mechanism to this verification process with 3rd party app stores.

[Croak]

Thats a recent addition; hope consumer protection laws around the world become better.

[colordrops]

It's ironic that they pull this bullshit while at the same time putting out their "Vanilla Pro" ad mocking Apple's ecosystem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnWykPvftfg

[63stack]

Same, I'm tempted to call android just a shittier iPhone now

[Aachen]

What part of cheaper, better, and open source is shittier exactly?

[brazukadev]

> Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android

You still can do that with PWAs in Android. Let's see for how long.

[01HNNWZ0MV43FF]

Do you have a single friend who isn't a programmer who has installed a PWA in the last two years?

[_imnothere]

> PWAs

And I wonder when can we stop lying to ourselves pretending "web"-apps are real (native) apps?

[koolala]

There is a big difference between Websites and Applications. Websites are a smaller subset of capabilities.

[JohnTHaller]

You can still side-load signed apps. It's a similar limitation to macOS which won't let you run apps that Apple hasn't signed without command line or control panel shenanigans. Compared to iOS, Android still has the advantage of installing your own full browser (like Firefox) with full-fat ad blocking (uBlock Origin, not Lite). iOS is Safari-only right now though, in theory, some alternative engines may be available in Europe later.

[TuringTest]

If they need to be signed by Google, that's not side loading by definition; it's using an alternate Google channel.

[koolala]

What your describing isn't "side-loading". Doing that means the apps go through Google's chain of control. Please don't let them redefine the word.

[ptrl600]

With macOS you run "sudo spctl --master disable", and then you can run whatever you want without sending PII to Apple. Is that the case with the new Android stuff?

[lieks]

You can install full uBlock Origin in the Orion browser, on iOS. It also has decent built-in ad blocking (though uBlock Origin is still better).

I had been thinking for a long time to switch to Android (GrapheneOS, probably) when my current iPhone 13 dies, but this whole thing with "sideloading" on Android is making me reconsider. If I can't have the freedom I want either way, might as well get longer support, polished animation and better default privacy (though I still need to opt-out of a bunch of stuff).

[cortesoft]

> It's a similar limitation to macOS which won't let you run apps that Apple hasn't signed without command line or control panel shenanigans

Can you do something similar to load unsigned apps on Android?

[_ea1k]

Agreed. While I do not like this move, ti is weird to me how far people are going in their criticism.

The perfect should not be the enemy of the good.