top | item 45598776

Acrobat is intrusive, slow and non-customizable

193 points| vincent-uden | 4 months ago |vincentuden.xyz

172 comments

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juliangmp|4 months ago

Personally I'm still impressed by Adobe's work there. They designed the PDF format but still manage to have the worst PDF reader on the entire market.

1121redblackgo|4 months ago

It aint easy being cheesy. It’s truly impressive how they’ve been able to lock in and lock down the entire corporate world for 2 decades while being that mediocre.

Also equally baffling how mediocre all the alternatives are.

russellbeattie|4 months ago

Until LLM models came along, I was convinced the first file format to gain sentience would be a PDF.

It can contain vector drawings, fonts, bitmap images, formatting, hypertext, plain text, rasterization hints (for everything from watch displays to 10 ton multicolor printing presses), layers, annotations, metadata, versioning, multiple languages, interactive forms, digital signatures/encryption, DRM, audio, video, 3D objects including CAD drawings, accessibility info, captions, file attachments and yes, even JavaScript. (And probably more - most of that was off the top of my head plus a quick search to remind myself.)

I'm personally amazed that any application can successfully open and edit a PDF document without creating a black hole in space, so Acrobat's continued suckiness into its third decade doesn't surprise me in the least.

sureglymop|4 months ago

The fact that they called it "portable" document format and now I regularly get PDFs that display "Please open this file in Acrobat" if opened in any other viewer... Great stuff.

mananaysiempre|4 months ago

This might actually be causal to an extent. A sibling comment mentions the early-mover advantage they got for their software from originating the format (initially in a locked-down form—IIRC, they actually prohibited Microsoft from including a PDF export feature in Office in the 90s). But another contribution to this is that there’ve put an absolutely unbelievable amount of stuff into the format while they were still milking it (how many flavours of PDF forms are there? three I think, one of which is XForms submitted over something equally execrable? also JavaScript support of course, can’t forget about the JavaScript support); and Acrobat is the only piece of software that supports—has to support—them all.

fragmede|4 months ago

They created the format, which means they don't need to make a good reader. Simple inertia guarantees them a good amount of revenue selling to corporations, and those contracts are usually quite juicy, especially the ones where the person signing the contract isn't forced to use said product. (cough Microsoft Teams)

Improving the product would be a significant amount of work, cost a lot of money, and why do that when you can just sit back and rack in the cash?

Perepiska|4 months ago

A month ago, I opened an old PDF file on MacOS Monterey and found that Preview couldn't display the images in it. Chrome browser on Monterey shows inlined images. I've read this PDF on Windows for years. For Monterey I had to convert it with some online converter in order to watch inlined images.

My favorite "the worst PDF reader" is MacOS Preview.

hulitu|4 months ago

> They designed the PDF format but still manage to have the worst PDF reader on the entire market.

Hm. I hate Acrobat but it is still the best pdf program on Windows.

pdf.js is a parody if you have more than 3 pages.

IT4MD|4 months ago

This is a lot like Microsoft having Outlook for multiple decades and it's somehow still the very worst email client.

Half my org still uses Outlook classic and even it's laughably unstable.

mananaysiempre|4 months ago

No mention of Sumatra PDF[1]? Windows (only), open source, uses MuPDF.

[1] https://www.sumatrapdfreader.org/

foofoo55|4 months ago

Our favorite is still PDF-XChange [1] which has been our daily driver for years. Only dislike is the difficulty in opening a document in a separate application window. It's either everything in one window or everything in its own window.

[1] https://www.pdf-xchange.com/

zamadatix|4 months ago

I had to ctrl+f the blogpost after reading because I couldn't believe they ended it without even a mention of SumatraPDF!

What a great PDF reader. kjksf, thank you!

jesuslop|4 months ago

Ohh, daily driver here. You can configure external apps to open the pdf (in a given page) and choose your hotkey for it, and with some effort, that supercharges the reading. With some scripting and using the grand pymupdf library one can customize it as deeply as one wishes.

vincent-uden|4 months ago

Sumatra PDF totally slipped my mind. I think I had issues with getting VIM bindings to work as I wanted to, but they for sure deserve a mention.

Saris|4 months ago

Firefox also let's you edit PDFs so thats been my go to for awhile now.

globalnode|4 months ago

ok thank you so much... finally an open source pdf reader thats not acrobat that works (hopefully, still testing). on the issue of pdf forms, my gosh they just should not exist, thats what web pages are for.

Mengkudulangsat|4 months ago

I love sumatra but I can't figure out how to sign with it.

mbmjertan|4 months ago

Acrobat Reader is one of the more poorly engineered programs I’ve used. And it recently asked me to sign in an account and give Adobe money to open a PDF??

Unfortunately I need to sign PDFs often (using an image of my physical signature or a digital certificate), and I haven’t used that didn’t suck more than Adobe in this. I haven’t tried Okular for this and Evince seemingly didn’t support this - but Preview (although an extremely great document reader in most regards) didn’t let me select an image of my signature, but asked me to either sign on the trackpad with my finger (how do you make that not look like you had nerve damage?) or show a picture of my signature to the webcam of my Mac so it would do extraction on it (which didn’t work at all after 20 minutes of attempting, but also why can’t I just select a photo??). Finally I figured out pdfjs in Firefox recently shipped image-based signing (still waiting on certs)

Of course, I could have edited the PDF in a better editor (GIMP even!), but.. why is such seemingly simple and common PDF work a horror show?

usaphp|4 months ago

You can use preview on a Mac to sign them

jscyc|4 months ago

I find Foxit Reader good for signing. You can also easily disable all the internet based "features" in the settings which I appreciate.

wodenokoto|4 months ago

Edges pdf viewer lets you draw on pdf after which you can print to pdf.

I use that to sign with “image of my signature” style of signing.

kochikame|4 months ago

I guess you can't just use a photo because it would make it too easy to use someone else's signature

clickety_clack|4 months ago

Acrobat is the worst. I had to download it to fill in tax forms and suddenly every pdf download triggers a lumbering beast to wake itself up and wrench control of my desktop. It has the feel of scammy shareware from back in the day.

itopaloglu83|4 months ago

Acrobat also installs this weird service that tries to upload all the pdf files you open, regardless of what you do, you cannot shut it down or disable.

I was in charge of the electronic document management system of a university, and kept having issues with deleting pdf files after opening them. The error said the files were still in use, and exiting Acrobat didn't solve the issue either. Apparently, the background service keeps the file open to upload it, and I had to forcefully close open files just to delete pdf files.

Acrobat is abusing a standard, portable document format, and trying to become synonymous with it, despite being very hostile against users.

gdulli|4 months ago

Firefox has never failed me for this. It's great not needing a separate program at all.

OGEnthusiast|4 months ago

Preview.app is actually one of the few first-party Apple apps that I really miss when using a non-macOS computer.

dylan604|4 months ago

that plus the quick look from smashing the space bar in Finder. selecting a file and hitting space is muscle memory for me, and the first time I do it on a non-macOS computer it just feels broken to me.

russellbeattie|4 months ago

The reason Preview works so well is because deep inside Apple's Quartz libraries used to render, rasterize and composite graphics such as windows, docs and images is a version of "Display PDF". Basically, PDF is a native macOS protocol.

The best of my understanding is that NeXT considered Display PDF the successor to Display PostScript and OS X inherited it. I have no idea how much or how little the latest macOS and iOS rely on PDF encoding for their GUIs now, but I know at one point it was an integral part of the windowing and drawing system and is still in there for processing PDF docs.

sings|4 months ago

Preview is genuinely very good, but it doesn’t handle annotations made in Acrobat very well. When navigating between annotations, they can become stuck open in Preview, and it is not possible to view insertions.

Whether that is the fault of Acrobat or Preview, I’m not sure. Unfortunately, though, it means I frequently need to move across to Acrobat when addressing edits that someone has marked up in that software. And that acts as a constant reminder of how sluggish, awkward and nagging Acrobat can be. Even quitting the app is slow!

donatj|4 months ago

I came here to say how spoiled we are as Mac users. Preview is genuinely the best PDF reader. Full stop.

Unchallenged, and for something like 20 plus years running.

dwd|4 months ago

Acrobat Reader lets you do a lot of potentially bad things with ActiveScript in a PDF once the user allows it.

I worked on a PDF form that was distributed widely within a Gov department. It would be routinely saved locally and emailed half completed up the managerial chain for sign-off on the request.

It had a lot of dynamic fields so you had to allow it to run macros.

The first thing it did was check the version of the just opened form and replace it with the latest PDF from the department's server.

It also had save/resume functionality which would only work in Acrobat Reader at the time.

Edit: Shout out to Inkscape which I find is a handy replacement for Illustrator and doing minor fixes to PDFs.

funktour|4 months ago

There are a surprising number of Preview defenders here. You guys must have never had to open a 500+ page document, because for me, that's an all-but guaranteed way to make Preview crash. Preview is only best because the major alternatives (Acrobat) suck more.

PDF readers I actually like: Zathura (obviously), sioyek (if you like customizability and Vim-like bindings, this is a good one!), and Skim.

Everything else tries to do too much (read: be an Acrobat substitute).

the-mitr|4 months ago

I used preview to annotate pdf for copyediting. It was modest 100 page text only doc. After about 70 pages or so preview crashed and the file became corrupted with no way to recover the annotation or comments. Never used preview for annotation there after. But as a viewer is good

sharma-arjun|4 months ago

Skim is amazing, I've never had it crash on large documents or with keyword searches as Preview almost always does. Also has a great note-taking system for scientific / academic work. Not sure why it flies under the radar so much.

dunham|4 months ago

I haven't had it crash. Typically my documents are under a 300 pages (either academic books or papers), but occasionally I use the PDF reference, which is 1300 pages.

crooked-v|4 months ago

For me the default alternative to Preview is PDF Expert. It's very zippy and it has the quality of life stuff that other readers leave out, like editing bookmarks.

tombert|4 months ago

I haven't really ever had issues with Evince. I don't know that my requirements have that advanced, but it does auto-updates when I write Typst or LaTeX, which is the thing I primarily care about.

vincent-uden|4 months ago

From a quick glance it seems to be a GNOME application? So that would rule out Windows support right?

LeoPanthera|4 months ago

Apple Preview does mostly everything you could want to do with a PDF. Supports unlocking encrypted PDFs, form filling, and even page rotation. (A feature which Adobe charges for.)

stefanos82|4 months ago

As a GNU / Linux Debian user, I personally use many different PDF readers for eccentric reasons lol!

My preference by far is qpdfview, but I also use Okular (KDE), Evince, its fork for MATE desktop environment, Atril, and of course xpdf!

quickthrowman|4 months ago

My company provides me with the top tier license for Bluebeam Revu, an amazing PDF editor geared towards the construction industry. It handles everything you can think of flawlessly, it can extract PDF tables into Excel spreadsheets, markups of all kinds, measuring, counting, resizing; adding, removing extracting, and collating sheets, pasting in photos from the clipboard, and so much more. It’s the best piece of software I use at work, and I’m thankful for it every day.

The construction industry is very strange and mostly runs on emailed PDFs (plans, proposals, submittals, etc) and Excel spreadsheets. Sometimes these PDFs are organized in Procore.

nipperkinfeet|4 months ago

We all do. There are many amazing alternatives nowadays. No need for any Adobe products.

superkuh|4 months ago

PDF is no longer a single format. You have to specify what type of PDF. Many will not open in anything but Acrobat.

For example the Wisconsin state dept. of natural resources converted nearly all of their permit/form PDFs to "Dynamic XFA (XML Form Architecture) PDF". Which is basically a PDF without content that pulls down all it's content from the web. It even still, ostensibly, supports Flash (swf) animations. But when I try to open those permit form PDFs in any other viewer but Acrobat I get,

>"Please wait... If this message is not eventually replaced by the proper contents of the document, your PDF viewer may not be able to display this type of document. You can upgrade to the latest version of Adobe Reader for Windows®, Mac, or Linux® by visiting http://www.adobe.com/go/reader_download. For more assistance with Adobe Reader visit http://www.adobe.com/go/acrreader. Windows is either a registered trademark or a trademark of Microsoft Corporation in the United States and/or other countries. Mac is a trademark of Apple Inc., registered in the United States and other countries. Linux is the registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in the U.S. and other countries." - https://dnr.wi.gov/files/PDF/forms/9400/9400-280.pdf

PDF is supposed to be the format that looks the same everywhere all the time. But these "PDF" completely and miserably fail at that.

teleforce|4 months ago

I share the same OP sentiment, and I think most users are.

At my workplace I've most of the Acrobat software suites for free but cannot be bothered to install them no matter how useful for my workflow because their multitude of software are just bad and resource hungry.

This is a classic pain point, I'm surprised Microsoft or any other companies do not provide better alternative to popular Acrobat software. My take is that designing front-end desktop software are genuinely hard and pay little if you're the second players.

ChuckMcM|4 months ago

Pretty neat, I always appreciate it when someone can give the reasoning behind their programming choices.

Its a good start but some issues (on Win10 using the binary from releases) that became pretty apparent right off the bat. I took an instructables page[1], that on Windows I had used 'print to PDF' to print it from Firefox into one long PDF. Using 'j' to scroll down, stops at the end of the page but keeps pretending its going down so you end up down a bunch of virtual lines that don't exist, 'J' will move you to the next page but not to the top of the next page? Two copies of the same file (but from different places, one from the NAS and one from the local disk) open, then neither one of them rendered. The status line suggested they were on different pages but there was nothing on the screen.

That said, it started quickly and time to first page render was fast (with a single file open). I tried it on a more conventional file (datasheet) and again with 'j' or 'k' it moves the page down or up and leave blank space where the page was, neither the next or previous pages are anywhere to be seen until you type 'J' or 'K'. That's a bit unintuitive.

[1] https://www.instructables.com/HackerBox-0110-Synth/

diegof79|4 months ago

Preview is probably the best thing that has happened since I switched to Mac almost two decades ago.

seemaze|4 months ago

Hardest working app on macOS

treetalker|4 months ago

I use the free version of PDF Expert on all my Apple devices, and it's pretty great. (I use it for heavy-duty highlighting and annotation, document creation/merging, creation of tables of contents, as well as handling large pdfs — appellate case records, briefs, etc.) I'm especially fond of how it works on my enormous iPad Pro with the Apple Pencil: almost as good as, and in many ways better than, working with real paper and pencil.

gdevenyi|4 months ago

No mention of Okular from KDE.

jwrallie|4 months ago

I vote for it too. My favorite features are adding comments to highlights when reviewing a PDF and the tool to copy tables to clipboard that allows you to help it with the segmentation. I even got some of my colleagues that are on Windows into it, and I don't even use KDE Plasma as my DE.

lurk2|4 months ago

I installed it a while ago based on recommendations I saw here. It works far better than Acrobat ever did. Deleting all of the Adobe files off of my computer felt great.

asdff|4 months ago

How about the fact they charge $25/mo for acrobat

bix6|4 months ago

What are people using as a free (edit: or lifetime license) PDF editor for business use / non-technical people? Whenever we try anything else we inevitably run into something we need acrobat for.

cyanydeez|4 months ago

Acrobat 9.0

observationist|4 months ago

I have grok produce a precise transcription of the text, then have chatgpt produce an editable word document, including forms, following the text that grok picked up (it's a lot better at OCR, for some reason)

And then if I need to produce another pdf, I export it from Word.

PDFs are silly. It's tech superstition, kinda like the belief that faxes are secure.

prmoustache|4 months ago

Not sure why would anyone edit a pdf. To me this is a format you export to, not a draft/working doc format.

daft_pink|4 months ago

I spend a lot of time using pdf’s at work as well and I’ve often yearned for something that uses vim keyboard commands and allows some keyboard based tagging and also search functionality. I explored writing something, but my understanding is that muPDF is proprietary and not suitable for commercial use in many cases.

When I was researching building a third party pdf reader with super specialized functions, I found that pdf.js might be good alternative that could be used commercially.

mgt19937|4 months ago

There is a pure rust library for rendering pdfs to png(or bitmap) and svg: https://github.com/LaurenzV/hayro. It is used by typst for pdf image[1]. Although it might not be as mature as mupdf.

[1]: https://github.com/typst/typst/pull/6623

vincent-uden|4 months ago

You right! It's been over a year since I evaluated hayro and sadly the performance wasn't good enough yet for a 60 fps render.

I actually chatted for a bit with Laurenz (the developer) and he recommended against using hayro in my case for the time being.

It is however part of (or dependent on) the larger linebender group of crates and will most likely be the best option in the future.

cubefox|4 months ago

For editing PDF content on Windows, "PDF-XChange Editor" (formerly PDF-XChange Viewer) can be pretty useful:

https://www.pdf-xchange.com/product/pdf-xchange-editor

There is a free version available during install (not immediately clear from the website), which already can do some things most free PDF viewers can't, like editing text.

nye2k|4 months ago

I want to add in, as I used a ton of JS back when for a GUI that would build prepress ready PDFs and ship em direct to giant xerox printers for a company called Copy General - the early days of on demand printing.

The pdf format was awesome broad shift for the early digital printers and has been a nice standard for a long time.

Adobe uses Acrobat as leverage in this game. Reader is the public’s only peephole and they have famously kept the features lean.

prmoustache|4 months ago

I didn't even knew acrobat was still a thing. I thought it died at the same time as flash. Who is still using it and what would be the use case?

elorant|4 months ago

I hate pretty much everything from Adobe. I treat all their software as malware since it's counter intuitive and consumes too much resources. Thank God i'm not an artist/design who has to work with their products daily.

eulgro|4 months ago

I still use Acrobat for two things:

- Viewing Altium generated schematics, which have some macros that only work in Acrobat.

- Printing stuff. Acrobat print dialog is pretty good.

annoyingnoob|4 months ago

Adobe is trash, bloated, over-priced software that is mostly DRM. Paying customer? Adobe hates you, but not your money.

munk-a|4 months ago

Like a lot of enterprise software companies - their customers aren't their end users so a lot of their incentives aren't actually aligned to produce a good UX.

rayiner|4 months ago

What’s crazy about how janky and slow Acrobat is that pdf-tools in Emacs is much faster, including at live resizing a PDF along with an emacs frame, even though Emacs has no PDF support. (PDF tools calls out to an external process to render individual pages to images, which emacs is capable of displaying.)

karthink|4 months ago

> pdf-tools in Emacs is much faster

pdf-tools is quite slow and a memory hog. emacs-reader is a replacement for it (still in development) that already blows every PDF reader I've ever used out of the water in performance:

https://tv.dyne.org/w/wcedffVATJGwLSCqta6pk1

Gazoche|4 months ago

The other day I had to use Acrobat at work and was absolutely flabbergasted by the UI. I counted no fewer than six buttons for the AI assistant but couldn't figure out how to see chapters for the document I was reading.

adamnemecek|4 months ago

What I hate about Preview on macOS is that all opened PDFs are kept in memory as opposed to freeing up the memory when the PDF is not active.

Look I know that I probably should not have 200 PDFs open, but Preview should not be consuming 40GB of memory.

crazygringo|4 months ago

That's... not how programs usually work. You open something, it's in memory.

Yeah, you shouldn't have 200 PDFs open.

On the other hand, the good news is your Mac still runs fine, consuming 40GB of "memory" even if you've only got 8GB. Since it's just putting it all out to swap on a fast SSD. So why even complain?

seemaze|4 months ago

As someone who routinely switches between multi-gigabyte PDF files, I appreciate that they all stay loaded in memory. Ain't nobody got time to re-render and re-index those files every time I switch documents..

243524352435|4 months ago

Wait until it's doing OCR on your 200 open PDF files...

Takes a while to finish, with the CPU going into overdrive.

But hey, it's useful when you want to Cmd-F through a bunch of scanned pixels.

:-)

karsa_orlong|4 months ago

I recommend sioyek if you need some highlighting functionality which is absent in zathura. Moreover, Xournal++ is also pretty good for editing.

What I really want is a PDF editor, with just highlighting functionality, that works like the visual mode.

qwertytyyuu|4 months ago

Edge is a decent pdf viewer, somehow adobe managed to make soemthing worse than edge

hulitu|4 months ago

> Edge is a decent pdf viewer

YMMV. For datasheets Edge is a parody. i need a TOC in a 6000 pages document, damn it.

Perz1val|4 months ago

Does the new edge still use the same PDF viewer as the non-chromium edge?

m463|4 months ago

Is there any open way to:

- make fillable forms

- fill out a form, and save/load/save it?

I recall some fillable forms could be opened and filled out on macos, but then they were sort of "finalized" and couldn't be edited once saved.

vincent-uden|4 months ago

Not yet, and maybe not ever.

MuPDF for sure has most of the capabilities of interacting with forms. But for my workflow I mostly create and read pdfs, I don't fill out much information in partially complete PDFs.

Comments or annotations are in the planning stage though

relatall|4 months ago

you forgot the adoption of enterprise software is determined not by employees, but by the VP of IT which Adobe probably does an excellent job of “customer relationship” with.

JBlue42|4 months ago

>which Adobe probably does an excellent job of “customer relationship” with

It really depends. We have a good CSM. But s/he has to defer to CSM's on other teams for more specialized knowledge. Any problems there have been far, far down my list of issues with that company.

Adobe's leverage is big, especially in creative industries so they can keep coasting.

octagons|4 months ago

In my experience, anyone running Wayland is very much used to some number of applications that depend on Xwayland. Does Zathura + MuPDF not work with it?

Either way, if you want to show off a project, just do so…

vincent-uden|4 months ago

Of course Zathura + any backend works through XWayland. But as mentioned I also use Windows and want to use the same program (or something with the same key bindings) on both operating systems

zaruvi|4 months ago

Yeah, it works perfectly fine for me on hyprland.

insane_dreamer|4 months ago

Despite trying many alternatives, I still regularly receive PDFs that can only be opened or signed in Acrobat. (Not sure how those are being created bu there's some lock-in there.)

Andrex|4 months ago

One of the first things I do on family computers is set PDFs to open in Chrome. (If I have time and the authority I also remove Acrobat.) It's saved me a lot of hassle.

Scene_Cast2|4 months ago

Running X11 on WSL is pretty easy and pain-free these days. The author could hypothetically run Zathura through that setup in a pinch.

I'm all for a good Acrobat alternative though.

mapierce2|4 months ago

I'm pretty sure zathura works with wayland just fine.

vincent-uden|4 months ago

Of course Zathura + any backend works through XWayland. But as mentioned I also use Windows and want to use the same program (or something with the same key bindings) on both operating systems

kmfrk|4 months ago

Very sweet project, it basically feels like mpv[1] for pdf.

[1]: https://mpv.io

snvzz|4 months ago

Okular, KDE's PDF viewer, works on Windows/MacOS as well, and is most tolerable.

jimjimjim|4 months ago

Writing a good pdf writer is easy. Writing a good pdf reader is extremely difficult.

scuff3d|4 months ago

If Zathura works on X11 wouldn't it work with Xwayland?

vincent-uden|4 months ago

Of course Zathura + any backend works through XWayland. But as mentioned I also use Windows and want to use the same program (or something with the same key bindings) on both operating systems

webspinner|4 months ago

I just uninstalled it, and ditched it for something else.

sys_64738|4 months ago

I would never infect my computer with any Adobe spyware.

crazygringo|4 months ago

One of my favorite things about macOS is that it comes with Preview. It's clean and lightning-fast for viewing and annotating PDFs. PDF support feels like it's just part of the OS because, well, it is.

I guess I hate Acrobat too, but I virtually never have to use it (except for tax forms, ugh).

airstrike|4 months ago

I'm a simple man. I see iced, I upvote

nice_byte|4 months ago

Just use sumatraPDF. Works on wine.

neilv|4 months ago

> On linux there is (at least) one non-bad PDF reader. Zathura is amazing with the MuPDF backend.

Obviously, Linux has the showstopper of being a non-abusive, non-proprietary software platform.

Who needs that nonsense, when the problem we're trying to solve is abusive, proprietary software.