[mad_tortoise]

Fascinating you say "a country that is in steady decline" when all the data of the past 29 years since the start of democracy seems to go against that statement. I hate the ANC for their corruption and other stances, but I don't let party political hate get in the way of the real basis of what is going on in the country. I'm guessing you haven't spent much time there? Whereas I have spent the past 25 years and travelled and lived extensively in South Africa.

What is your indication of decline? Some facts and figures:

- Less than 30% of the population having access to water has increased to near 100%.

- Electricity had less than 30% access and now sits around 90%

- Access to education (The matric pass rate more than doubled from 53.4 in 1995 to 82.9 in 2023) to taking that to near 100% in 29 years is pretty incredible.

- Taking 8 million people out of poverty and lower class into the middle class in that time is pretty great.

- Access to free healthcare for the entire country.

- The freedom of not being discriminated towards due to skin colour.

Yes the ANC has had an opportunity to do much greater good, but if you take in the bigger picture and understand that the white population still holds over 70% of the wealth while being 10% of the population - this is an enforced inequality that needs to be righted.

If you look at the freedoms of South Africa, it has possibly the best constitution in the world. Sure, the enforcement of the laws are not as good as the laws themselves - but the rate of improvement in my lifetime has been staggering. Even despite the setback of the Zuma years.

Even now, we have gone from an ANC dominated political landscape to a Government of National Unity, which forces different political factions to work together. Another huge milestone in the burgeoning democracy of a young country.

It is so far from perfect but if you really have spent any significant time in SA and still think it is a country in decline, then I am more inclined to think you're one of the types of expats who love to shit on something that you have no bond to, and not because your arguments are bound by facts. We must interrogate the long standing consequences of white monopoly capitals violent subjugation of South Africans in both the past and the present to paint a fair picture of the country.

Your quote " a country that is in steady decline." certainly does not paint a fair picture.

[lgleason]

The country is in decline. I have spent a lot of time there, have family who live there and can easily counter this:

- Many communities still rely on water trucks instead of water pipe infrastructure. The government loots the funds for it, meanwhile the entire system is on the verge of collapse and there are regular water shortages.

- With the electric grid, the amount of load shedding in the past few years where people are regularly without electric to 6-8 hours a day is absolutely crazy. The country didn't used to experience that. Also, cable theft is common, which wasn't an issue 30 years ago.

- 1.6 million people out of 66 million pay 76% of all taxes.

- Public healthcare in ZA is bad and not recommended by anybody who values their life.

- South Africa has more race laws today than it did during apartheid.

- It has a violent crime rate that is one of the highest in the world.

- Unemployment is high.

- It has suffered from massive underinvestment in infrastructure over the past 30 years.

- Extremely high levels of government corruption.

One thing that really brought home how the situation is in South Africa is was when I was talking to someone I know who works for a furniture company there. They used to make all of their furniture in the country, but recently started importing it from China because that is cheaper than producing it locally. Keep in mind that is with an average daily wage of $30 for a factory worker. If a country with South Africa's nature resources and inexpensive labor cannot compete with China for manufacturing furniture for the local market, it is deep trouble.

That is probably why the CEO of a local Tile Manufacturer recently said that South Africa is one of the worlds least manufacturing-friendly economies due to onerous regulation, infrastructure deterioration, energy uncertainty and rising costs.

[mad_tortoise]

- Please share which communities rely on water trucks?

- Loadshedding is no more.

- The tax issue is precisely the problem that needs redressing and is primarily because of past injustices. You're almost there.

- I have been treated in public hospitals and while not perfect the access to healthcare is impressive.

- I agree with the race laws. Your basis that SA has more race laws is gaslighting due to the fact of the homeland act. But let's not let facts get in the way.

- Violent crime rate is because why? Apartheid spatial planning. Read up and learn all about why this has re-enforced violent crime.

- Unemployment is high, yes. Doesn't mean the country is in decline.

- Corruption has hit its peak and on the way down post-Zuma years.

I have a close friend who owns a huge furniture company, and builds everything in house and grows year on year very well. So your anecdote is countered by mine.

[klipt]

Fun fact: when the Gupta brothers were starting to run into trouble for stealing South African public funds, they paid British PR firm Bell Pottinger £100,000 a month to distract the public.

That's when Bell Pottinger came up with a campaign to stoke racial tension by popularizing the phrase "white monopoly capital" to distract from the Guptas:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/sep/05/bell-pottinger...

[Havoc]

The stats you posted paint a good picture of improving lives in real ways but they're only part of the picture - and not the deciding ones.

We all saw it with electricity - handing out more access isn't the hard part. Backing that with funding and capacity to deliver is.

Inequality, unemployment and debt/gdp are all on very alarming trajectories. Without a very sharp course adjustment (and soon) there are dark clouds ahead that could undo all the victories you list. Not sure if that makes it a decline, but if it were a car ride I'd say it's time to buy crash insurance

[antonvs]

I'm sure you know this, but the "steady decline" narrative tends to come from people who are comparing it to the apartheid-era standard of living for white people there, effectively supported by slave labor. (In hindsight, no wonder Reagan and the US Republicans were so supportive of it!)

[mad_tortoise]

I am white. I am surrounded by white people. The standard of living of just about every white person I know has increased in the past 25 years.

It's really simple, we as white people have been given - historically and now - just about every advantage a minority can have. If a white person or their parents couldn't make the most of that well then that's ok, because equality and equity are the goals. And just because a PoC are succeeding more now, does not mean white people are suffering in the least.

[dang]

Please make your substantive points without crossing into personal attack.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[TimorousBestie]

The trick here, for the uninitiated, is that “race-based law” or “race law” means the law refers in some way to race. That is legally and logically distinct from “laws that discriminate on the basis of race,” which is how most foreigners read the term.

Here’s a more reasonable point of view: https://cthulhucachoo.substack.com/p/does-south-africa-reall...

[mad_tortoise]

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