Cool that people are trying new things. And I sure hate waiting for a PCB order to make its way from Hong Kong or Taiwan to Nebraska.
I'm not sure I want the trade-off of having to try to fit my existing circuit into those pre-populated vias.
Part of the joy of PCB layout is trying to be "optimal". That might be optimal in board size, optimal in the elegance of the trace layouts. I even trying to minimize vias (or not have them altogether). With prefab vias, there will be kludges to work my own vias into those locations. And, honestly, the unused vias will annoy me as well.
I'm a sucker for solder masks, silkscreening… I think I am too in love with what I get back from Hong Kong and Taiwan.
My "quick prototyping" consists of breadboarding and trashy perf-board mockups.
That fitting problem sounds like an excellent job for a computer program! I wonder how many prebuilt PCB layouts would be necessary to fit most hobbyist requests.
So glad to see a Stephen Hawes video make the front page. I've been trying for a few years now to get discussion going around his opensource pick and place the LumenPNP[0]
His goal of bringing small scale manufacturing down to the workshop / home garage level is really inspiring and is especially relevant in the modern era of tariffs and economic upheaval.
To get good at something people need to get hands on experience and it needs to be affordable and relatively easy to use. The kinds of tools that Stephen is promoting make that possible and that's critical if we want people to get good at building things.
They also have a pick and place machine.[1] It's a lot like the defunct Liteplacer.[2]
It seems to be a kit, not a pre-assembled unit. It's hard to tell from the documentation. It looks a bit flimsy for the rigidity required. Same problem as the Liteplacer. To download the "white paper", you have to go through the onboarding funnel and agree to being spammed, which is always annoying.
The frustrating thing about prototyping pick and place and solder paste machines is that production people want speed, which costs. The prototype-only market isn't big enough. (Has the low-cost reflow oven situation improved? The low-end ones had hot spots that would scorch a board.)
Compare this Neoden line of products.[3] No idea if these are any good. US$3000 for pick and place. That looks like a much more useful product than the Opulo machine. It can work with a wider range of part sizes; not everything has to be on an 8mm tape.
(The problem with plated-through holes, of which "vias" are a subset, is that they require a number of chemical baths which aren't worth setting up for a one-off.)
Cool concept but as someone that makes quite a few PCBs a year I don't see any use of this for me personally.
Once you get to a certain component size and layer count, home making PCBs doesn't make any more sense.
I do still order only PCB and solder stencil initially to hand solder and test boards before PCBA but by that time I have tested most on breadboards and fitted the PCB in CAD to wherever it will go.
While waiting the 1-2 weeks for the boards and components I usually work on the firmware.
It's a shame there aren't US manufacturers who can manufacture custom PCBs as cheaply as JLPCB or PCBWay.
These types of lasers might be a stopgap if tariffs make buying from those companies inordinately expensive, however the extreme cost, and the need to do a bunch of cleanup kind of makes me suspect there needs to be another iteration of this tech.
I don't really get this. If I'm doing vias, I'm nearly finished with prototyping. Not to mention routing is a part of that and I don't want to route twice.
I think it's a neat idea that could be useful sometimes, and which I will probably never actually use.
I like that it allows you to prototype using the same smt parts that you will want in the end, without having to try to buy redundant DIP and THT copies of every part, or build a bunch of dip breakout boards for everything.
That's potentially a pretty big deal.
The reasons why I'll probably never use it are:
* It's value requires that it's not merely possible but totally convenient for you to print and etch.
Chemical etching with a sponge seems like it should be no problem but how to print? I don't have a laser engraver and I wouldn't use a router for this even if I had one. I do have an fdm printer. Has anyone one used fdm to print etching mask onto copper? I have a laser printer, is there some kind of special sheet that you run through a laser printer and then transfer like with an iron or something? I see a few almost possibilities but I just don't see it being actually convenient to where I would actually do it more than once just for the experience.
But if somehow you had this down, then great. This is just swapping out a plain blank copper pcb for a more useful one. It's a win.
* I bet I almost never have a design that fits within or around the pre-allocated number of vias and the pre-allocated positions of them.
Most of my things need a at least one 28 to 40 pin header somewhere, or 2. Even if I use surface mount versions that solder just to the top, that's still a lot of signals that usually can't all live just on top, they have to cross each other and that means more than a dozen vias. If I made my own version with more vias, they would probably just be in the way. Here he does try to make clusers of vias so there are both vias and clear spots. Maybe there is a way to just keep working on that idea and develop other layouts with more vias that still leaves clear areas.
* All my stuff, the circuit itself is usually pretty simple and doesn't need much prototyping. The initial lash-up to get the circuit working at all, is usually not where I spend all my time.
I might have a lot of traces but it's all just data & address lines without much mystery about if it will work or how it will work.
I go through a lot of revisions but prototyping wouldn't have changed that, I just like refining the design over time because it's easy to do in the cad software. It's (apparently) a passtime I enjoy. Most of the design is actually in the exact board shape fitting into something else, and fitting everything into a small space while still being hand-solderable with only medium skill/tools, ie tsop & qfn but no bga, all 0805, etc, so it can be built by more people instead of just myself or an actual fab shop.
I think for most of my stuff, this just wouldn't get me a faster development cycle. The initial lash-up to get the circuit working at all is just not where I spend most of my time, and I think that's what this primarily helps with.
Or, it helps make a better final version if you don't really care too much what size & shape the board is, any old square is fine, but for some reason you do care about having 20 vias instead of 20 bits of wire?
But I don't think everyone else is me. I mean this guy sure seems to think it's solving a problem for him.
with modern Chinese manufacturing, you get 2-layer PCB with via and soldermask gorgeously made for $4 in 24 hours (actually samples can even be free in China). why bother make PCB at home with all the nasty chemicals or CNC ?
1. It's a hobby in your own right. The nasty is not that bad, back in the day the annoying thing was how fiddly it was but the community thought of better ways like etching with a sponge. You can get better boards made online but that applies to all hobbies.
2. In most of US/EU you get them for $5 in up to _two weeks_, or in two days for $5+$2X or more which adds up quicklyand can be more than the rest of the project. Even next day shipping loses out badly to making it yourself in ~30 minutes, turns into two days delay unless you're lucky to have an idea in the morning and time to work on it in the next afternoon, a lot of the time i see people bodging things i'd make another board for because it's just easier.
It might take 24 hours to make the board but shipping is at least another week of wait time. The dream is for a 3d printer like setup that sits on the desk and cranks out fully assembled multilayer boards
I tried the laser etched PCB with the same laser and the same settings, I could not get it to etch through the copper. No clue why. Always impressed with the Opulo guys, but wish it was reproducible.
I tried with the same laser and settings as well, and couldn't get it to work either.
I think the issue is that if there's a tarnish on the copper, it will work okay. The problem is when you polish the copper. It turns reflective and will not absorb the energy of the laser.
A 5W UV laser or a 100W MOPA laser will give better results. I'm thinking about a 200W version for black friday.
Is there a way you could do this with a lot of vias in a grid to make it more flexible and either lasering around the vias in a tight circle to disconnect them or just straight up punching them out?
Ahhhh. Another one. I'm convinced there is not a single acronym/technical short word I pronounce [in my head] the same way as other people. C'est la Via.
[+] [-] JKCalhoun|5 months ago|reply
I'm not sure I want the trade-off of having to try to fit my existing circuit into those pre-populated vias.
Part of the joy of PCB layout is trying to be "optimal". That might be optimal in board size, optimal in the elegance of the trace layouts. I even trying to minimize vias (or not have them altogether). With prefab vias, there will be kludges to work my own vias into those locations. And, honestly, the unused vias will annoy me as well.
I'm a sucker for solder masks, silkscreening… I think I am too in love with what I get back from Hong Kong and Taiwan.
My "quick prototyping" consists of breadboarding and trashy perf-board mockups.
[+] [-] sokoloff|5 months ago|reply
So many times that I’d happily pay $20 to try a board right fricking now (and I doubt they’ll be $20 all-in).
For me, it would replace breadboarding, not replace a final prototype PCB before committing to a first assembly run.
[+] [-] marcosdumay|5 months ago|reply
The author of the video has some previous work on solder masks and silk layers. You may want to check the earlier laser manufacturing videos.
[+] [-] altairprime|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] Teever|5 months ago|reply
His goal of bringing small scale manufacturing down to the workshop / home garage level is really inspiring and is especially relevant in the modern era of tariffs and economic upheaval.
To get good at something people need to get hands on experience and it needs to be affordable and relatively easy to use. The kinds of tools that Stephen is promoting make that possible and that's critical if we want people to get good at building things.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LumenPnP
[+] [-] Topgamer7|5 months ago|reply
I will say that his presentation style always tilts me a bit. It's his laugh/excitement always seems forced/fake.
[+] [-] Animats|5 months ago|reply
It seems to be a kit, not a pre-assembled unit. It's hard to tell from the documentation. It looks a bit flimsy for the rigidity required. Same problem as the Liteplacer. To download the "white paper", you have to go through the onboarding funnel and agree to being spammed, which is always annoying.
The frustrating thing about prototyping pick and place and solder paste machines is that production people want speed, which costs. The prototype-only market isn't big enough. (Has the low-cost reflow oven situation improved? The low-end ones had hot spots that would scorch a board.)
Compare this Neoden line of products.[3] No idea if these are any good. US$3000 for pick and place. That looks like a much more useful product than the Opulo machine. It can work with a wider range of part sizes; not everything has to be on an 8mm tape.
(The problem with plated-through holes, of which "vias" are a subset, is that they require a number of chemical baths which aren't worth setting up for a one-off.)
[1] https://www.opulo.io/products/lumenpnp
[2] https://www.liteplacer.com/
[3] https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SMT-PCB-Production-Li...
[+] [-] sschueller|5 months ago|reply
Once you get to a certain component size and layer count, home making PCBs doesn't make any more sense.
I do still order only PCB and solder stencil initially to hand solder and test boards before PCBA but by that time I have tested most on breadboards and fitted the PCB in CAD to wherever it will go.
While waiting the 1-2 weeks for the boards and components I usually work on the firmware.
[+] [-] tliltocatl|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] androng|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] LarsDu88|5 months ago|reply
These types of lasers might be a stopgap if tariffs make buying from those companies inordinately expensive, however the extreme cost, and the need to do a bunch of cleanup kind of makes me suspect there needs to be another iteration of this tech.
[+] [-] willis936|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] brg|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] bongodongobob|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] Brian_K_White|5 months ago|reply
I like that it allows you to prototype using the same smt parts that you will want in the end, without having to try to buy redundant DIP and THT copies of every part, or build a bunch of dip breakout boards for everything.
That's potentially a pretty big deal.
The reasons why I'll probably never use it are:
* It's value requires that it's not merely possible but totally convenient for you to print and etch.
Chemical etching with a sponge seems like it should be no problem but how to print? I don't have a laser engraver and I wouldn't use a router for this even if I had one. I do have an fdm printer. Has anyone one used fdm to print etching mask onto copper? I have a laser printer, is there some kind of special sheet that you run through a laser printer and then transfer like with an iron or something? I see a few almost possibilities but I just don't see it being actually convenient to where I would actually do it more than once just for the experience.
But if somehow you had this down, then great. This is just swapping out a plain blank copper pcb for a more useful one. It's a win.
* I bet I almost never have a design that fits within or around the pre-allocated number of vias and the pre-allocated positions of them.
Most of my things need a at least one 28 to 40 pin header somewhere, or 2. Even if I use surface mount versions that solder just to the top, that's still a lot of signals that usually can't all live just on top, they have to cross each other and that means more than a dozen vias. If I made my own version with more vias, they would probably just be in the way. Here he does try to make clusers of vias so there are both vias and clear spots. Maybe there is a way to just keep working on that idea and develop other layouts with more vias that still leaves clear areas.
* All my stuff, the circuit itself is usually pretty simple and doesn't need much prototyping. The initial lash-up to get the circuit working at all, is usually not where I spend all my time.
I might have a lot of traces but it's all just data & address lines without much mystery about if it will work or how it will work.
I go through a lot of revisions but prototyping wouldn't have changed that, I just like refining the design over time because it's easy to do in the cad software. It's (apparently) a passtime I enjoy. Most of the design is actually in the exact board shape fitting into something else, and fitting everything into a small space while still being hand-solderable with only medium skill/tools, ie tsop & qfn but no bga, all 0805, etc, so it can be built by more people instead of just myself or an actual fab shop.
I think for most of my stuff, this just wouldn't get me a faster development cycle. The initial lash-up to get the circuit working at all is just not where I spend most of my time, and I think that's what this primarily helps with.
Or, it helps make a better final version if you don't really care too much what size & shape the board is, any old square is fine, but for some reason you do care about having 20 vias instead of 20 bits of wire?
But I don't think everyone else is me. I mean this guy sure seems to think it's solving a problem for him.
[+] [-] coryrc|5 months ago|reply
Also you don't have to reroute, you can build it the same.
[+] [-] ycui1986|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] phaker|5 months ago|reply
2. In most of US/EU you get them for $5 in up to _two weeks_, or in two days for $5+$2X or more which adds up quicklyand can be more than the rest of the project. Even next day shipping loses out badly to making it yourself in ~30 minutes, turns into two days delay unless you're lucky to have an idea in the morning and time to work on it in the next afternoon, a lot of the time i see people bodging things i'd make another board for because it's just easier.
[+] [-] taf2|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|5 months ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] androiddrew|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] bb88|5 months ago|reply
I think the issue is that if there's a tarnish on the copper, it will work okay. The problem is when you polish the copper. It turns reflective and will not absorb the energy of the laser.
A 5W UV laser or a 100W MOPA laser will give better results. I'm thinking about a 200W version for black friday.
[+] [-] thomasjb|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] Western0|5 months ago|reply
show me how You can to do this.
[+] [-] grogenaut|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] the__alchemist|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] Brian_K_White|5 months ago|reply
Yet I do say vee-ya for the holes in pcbs. So I say the same word both ways at different times.
And I guess I say route both ways at different times too now that I mention it.
[+] [-] Retr0id|5 months ago|reply
[+] [-] sodikidos|5 months ago|reply
[deleted]