[thesmtsolver]

How does this work with other countries not enacting 32-hour workweeks?

This will be a repeat of manufacturing going outside of US due to reduced standards (labor and pollution) and therefore cheaper manufacturing in China. And due to that blue collar work got destroyed in the long term.

Logically, unless there are high trade barriers for software/services/goods from countries that don't have similar standards, long-term, these jobs will just shift there.

[syntaxing]

One of Henry Ford biggest push was for a 5 day work week when no one else did it. Why? Because it meant workers had two days of week to spend money which increased consumer spending and look at the US today. Our consumer spending is about 2/3 of our GDP spending. I'm not saying you're wrong. But there's more to "drive your workers to the bone means we get better productivity and economic conditions". The biggest mistake the US is making is not capitalizing harder on onshoring + robotics.

[infecto]

On the flip side I would argue that European countries have largely fell flat or negative because employment law is too generous and it forces companies to be too cautious in hiring. I don’t know what the right balance but I am not sure going for even fewer hours is the right move.

[jaccola]

I assume we agree that working less produces less (which reasonable people debate) since otherwise competition from abroad wouldn't be an issue.

If that is the case, then adding trade barriers also doesn't fix anything. Adding the trade barriers would ultimately just produce a lower standard of living. You'd essentially have an isolated system and the system is now producing less, so necessarily there will be less for everyone in the system.

Adding trade barriers also doesn't fix the threat of an adversarial country working 50% more than you for the next 50 years and as a result having the infrastructure to dominate you in numerous ways.

[therealpygon]

> I assume we agree that working less produces less

That’s a pretty big assumption. From what perspective, since the “working less” is only the perspective of the worker?

Production is not a zero-sum game that assumes companies make zero effort to invest in more manpower rather than profits.

Profit rates, however, are a significant part of the problem as each US company in the chain attempts to maximize profits they obtain from the next and avoid any competition (often using the legal system for protection). That doesn’t occur in the areas you mention because competition is the name of the game in those countries, which is why they have maximized production and flexibility.

[mariusor]

> I assume we agree that working less produces less

Per capita, let's say yes, though I think there are people that assert that individual productivity is higher when working less hours.

But as a whole, probably not. In aggregate companies will pay more people less money, to do the same amount of work, so I think it should balance itself out.

[piker]

Doesn't that ignore the possibility of profit motives driving innovation when they're not being undercut by lower standards re externalities?

[matsemann]

Do we need to produce more, though?

[liampulles]

I'm a senior South African software developer (let my add my perspective here).

In terms of hours worked per week, I have rarely worked more than 40 hours per week (and I mean by that that I'm contracted for 40 hours and rarely work overtime). I know people who work more than that, and sometimes much more than that, which is a function of their skills and what kind of job they can secure (as well as their appetite for overtime), but I'd say my situation is fairly normal for people with ze skills. I also worked at a company which did 32 hour work weeks (which they did as a perk to retain people, not because they were forced to).

Software dev skills are quite scarce here, and South African devs are already cheap enough that it is difficult to try and offshore that work (although I know a few SA companies which have contracted companies in India for work). I also know many SA devs who have emmigrated to other countries which themselves have scarce software developers, but where the salaries and "standard of living" is perhaps better.

[throw-qqqqq]

Many countries have <40 hours/week and are still thriving.

There will always be someone willing to undercut. Should that be reason for us all to race each other to the bottom?

I personally don’t think the negative consequences of working a little less (on paper!) are proportional to the positives.

[Ray20]

> Many countries have <40 hours/week and are still thriving.

May I have the list of such countries with a level of prosperity comparable to the US (which seriously consider an $85k tax-free minimum wage)?

Your "everything is still thriving" on paper turns out to be "everyone except the elite is drowning in poverty and they can't complain about it because then their totalitarian government will declare them terrorists or something" in practice. All the time.

[mc32]

Notably EU countries don’t produce as many large or global software products. I know they have some companies of renown but not to the degree the US does.

There may or may not be a connection to work habits, but we should find out and then decide if we’re okay with the consequences (like the lowest GDP per capita state (AL) being on par with Germany). Maybe we’re okay with playing second fiddle. But we should know what we’re in for.

[Pungsnigel]

Which countries have <40 hours/week and thrive?

[rayiner]

> Many countries have <40 hours/week and are still thriving.

But it's a fiction built on U.S. force projection. It's become apparent that none of these countries could defend themselves against an aggressive competitor.

[eastbound]

France is thriving with 35hrs/wk! …if you omit that Fitch and S&P degraded the debt notation from AAA to A+ in just 6 years.

And that there’s no B. So we’re thriving on debt.

[meheleventyone]

If things were this simple compensation costs alone would have pushed all labour that could be moved (blue collar or not) outside of the US.

[bee_rider]

I wonder if there could ever be a tariff policy that is automatically proportional some measure of worker/environmental exploitation. I know tariffs are current very unpopular, but maybe they can be used for good?

[thesmtsolver]

That will be a great solution. Tariffs based on some measure of worker/environmental exploitation rather than trade imbalance.

[esafak]

Countries can stay ahead by enticing better workers with better working conditions. I ain't doing 996.

[thesmtsolver]

> I ain't doing 996.

Neither am I. But how do you prevent countries doing 996 from dominating the market like they did in manufacturing without strict regulation and barriers?

[Arch-TK]

Do you think meaningfully more work will get done in those countries with those extra 8 hours?

[skeeter2020]

if you step outside our IT bubble absolutely. Manufacturing & Services can produce an awful lot of meaningful, measured value with an extra 8 hours a week.

[array_key_first]

I mean, other countries are working their employees to the bone. Some employee children, some have slavery.

Should we go ahead and bring back slavery for "competition"? I mean, you can't compete with free labor, right?

We have to draw the line somewhere, and that somewhere is arbitrary. We're not changing any decisions here - 32 hours/week is equally as arbitrary as 40.

[freefaler]

Look at Germany, their highly profitable companies have moved so much outside of the country, because they can't produce a competitive product inside with the strong unions, well-meaning green taxes and giving too much to the unemployed imigrants coming as social security and benefits.

When you start overtaxing, you are just milking the cow and not feeding her enough. She'd last for some time but then't you won't have a cow and milk.

You're absolutely correct, but most people don't understand how even a simple "village-size" economy works. They think money is just "printed" and "government will enforce our standard of living".

[ForHackernews]

Better work 996, American techies. Never demand higher standards from your owners, or they might replace you with Chinese, and then where would you be?