[SecondHandTofu]

More political arguments about the other effects of unions aside - I've never heard a good answer for why unions are good for workers in professions with wide ranges of skill and impact, such as lots of types of knowledge work. Do you have an answer for that?

Roles that are more fungible, train drivers, factory workers, I can see the case from the worker's perspective, even if I think there are externalities.

But I can't even see it from a worker's perspective in roles such as software or sales, why would anyone good want to work in an environment where much worse workers are protected, compensation is more levelised etc?

I'm assuming this will boil down to some unspoken values differences but still thought I'd ask.

[jon-wood]

A union does whatever its members want the union to do. I'd argue that an environment where pay negotiation is a case of every person for themselves isn't actually good for anyone but if the majority of members disagree with me then the union won't get involved in pay. If they wanted to they could scope the union's responsibility purely to being notified of budget reductions/redundancies and given a seat at the table when working out how to handle them.

[bluGill]

A union works best when workers see they are all in it together. There are lots of unions, but it is much harder for them to be powerful when members see defecting as helping them. There is a reason unions are most common in labor areas where everyone is the same. You can't be a better bus driver than someone else (either you are bad enough to fire or you are as good as everyone else). The assembly line is as good as the worst/slowest person on it, so there is no advantage in being faster at putting bolts in, or whatever you do (unions can sometimes push safety standards, but also comes from others who have the union take credit)

[eru]

> A union does whatever its members want the union to do.

Just like a democracy does whatever its voters want it to do?..

Different people want different things.

> I'd argue that an environment where pay negotiation is a case of every person for themselves isn't actually good for anyone but if the majority of members disagree with me then the union won't get involved in pay.

Well, I feel for the minority that doesn't want the union to get involved in their affairs.

[bravetraveler]

Not a developer, but close enough: so that 'good' stays 'good' and doesn't become 'expected'. Or, said another way, I can enjoy protections too. Automation allows us to do more, actually doing more isn't necessary: remember the tools/why they were made. Yet expectations continue to ride an escalator.

I don't know why one would want to maintain a system of 'look how high I can still jump after all these years, reward please'. Again, expectations: they rise faster than the rewards.

The adversarial framing with coworkers is confusing, discipline is a different matter from collective bargaining.

[sfn42]

> why would anyone good want to work in an environment where much worse workers are protected

The "much worse workers" are the majority. That's why you see everyone complaining about technical interviews and such - those of us who crush the interviews and get the jobs don't mind.

[kaoD]

How old are you? I'm in your boat but I suspect we'll change our tune when we get older.

[yunwal]

I’m quite good at technical interviews, and I still think they’re not a good way to find the best person for the job in 95% of places they’re used

[wongarsu]

In theory you could limit the scope of the union to not include things like negotiating salary or defending workers from being fired. I don't think anything prevents you from having a union that just fights for basic rights like good chairs, not having to review AI slop and not being exposed to asbestos.

Of course keeping the union narrowly focused is an issue. Unions are a democracy after all

[eru]

> Of course keeping the union narrowly focused is an issue. Unions are a democracy after all

Yep, and I don't want my neighbours to vote on the colour of my underwear or what I have for breakfast either. They can mind their business, and I can mind mine.

[wizzwizz4]

Look into SAG-AFTRA.