[kinlan]

Fwiw - I'm hoping it can break out too. But one of the biggest challenges is that last bit "asking it to use vanilla JS" - unsee this all the time in developer relations: getting developers to ask for a specific thing or even have it on their mind to think about using it is one of the biggest hurdles.

My actual long term hope is that in the future we won't need to think about frameworks at all: https://paul.kinlan.me/will-we-care-about-frameworks-in-the-...

[simonw]

> Frameworks are abstractions over a platform designed for people and teams to accelerate their teams new work and maintenance while improving the consistency and quality of the projects. [...] I was just left wondering if there will be a need for frameworks in the future? Do the architecture patterns we've learnt over the years matter? Will new patterns for software architecture appear that favour LLM management?

Yes! That's exactly what I was trying to get at.

[mwcampbell]

Are you saying that frameworks might become less important because LLMs can just generate boilerplate code instead? Or do I misunderstand? Personally, if the vibe-engineering future that some executives are trying to foist on us means that I'll be reading more code than I write directly, then I want that code to be _doubly_ succinct.

[port11]

Maybe in a distant future, but why are so obsessed with the anti-framework sentiment? We don't shy away from a framework when coding in Node, PHP, Java…

Is there something about the web — with its eternal backwards compatibility, crazy array of implementations, and 3 programming languages — that seems like it's the ideal platform for a framework-free existence?

Maybe if we bake all of the ideas into JavaScript itself, but then where does it stop? Is PHP done evolving? Does Java, by itself, do everything as well as you want out of Spring?