What I want to know is -- why did they release the app in the state that it was in vs partnering with someone like Microsoft?
Let's assume that Apple's contract with Google was ending soon, and that Google had failed to deliver features for Apple (turn by turn, etc), meaning Apple wanted to go a different direction.
Sure, Apple then started buying up mapping companies, building their own product, but they must have known they were on a tight schedule. My question is -- why didn't they partner with Microsoft to use Bing maps?
Microsoft gets a huge win in that suddenly 40 million people are using their service. Apple gets a win in that they have a pretty comparative product out of the gate to Google Maps, and it gives them time to build up their own service.
But instead, Apple released maps that had 1/3rd the quality of the maps they had before. Where's the logic in that?
They don't want to partner with anybody. All that would do is recreate the problem they faced with Google: losing control and sooner or later negatively affecting user experience as New Partner Co. begins to favor its interests over whatever future interests Apple may or may not have.
Far better to rip the band-aid off now, tune the dataset over time, and ultimately emerge with a better overall experience that you now control completely. Already the system-wide integration of mapping is far superior in that regard. That just wasn't going to happen with Google or any other partner which would forever live as a walled garden of an App.
Inaccurate mapping data is, after all, a (relatively) finite problem.
There are two companies that have done the legwork to acquire a really really good database of mapping information:
* TeleAtlas, which is in bed with Google
* Navteq, which is owned by Nokia, which has a deal to provide maps to Bing
So now maps is one of the few areas where both Google/Android and Microsoft/Nokia have a blatant advantage over Apple. Why would they want to give that up?
It could be the Goldilocks problem for Apple with their own - supposedly - high bar for quality that made them end up with their own vastly inferior product. I imagine we'll see some scoops on the inside baseball in a few weeks.
It is really not 1/3 the quality. It has errors, without question, but so did Google Maps when it first launched. To partner with another company and then, in a few years again switch to their own maps and start over or partner again with yet another company doesn't make sense.
It's an unfortunate situation, but not something that can't be gradually fixed. There are several features I prefer actually. The city I live in is broken into subdivisions I wasn't previously aware of. It looks nicer. And the yelp reviews are useful, perhaps even a good way for businesses to quickly become featured on maps.
I have to be honest, none of the people I know who have purchased the 5 have complained much about maps, they realize its not as good as google but they feel the other features more than make up for it.
Well, they had two choices in front of them. Suck it up and partner, or suck it up and risk this situation.
Whilst I'm sure they'd have gotten a 1-year licensing agreement with Microsoft I can only guess it'd come with a steep price tag on. Plus they'd just been burnt by dealing with a third party. Plus (again, sorry), they need to have the Maps application being used by people worldwide to improve the quality. It doesn't get better with time, it gets better with users moaning.
I suspect that cutting the google deal short was intentionally done leave Google flat footed with no map app on iOS. Simply put it cuts google out of that market for a while leaving Apple the only major player on their device.
While it isn't perfect being the only big map player in that system means that over time customers will just accept that is their only option, and those with problems will see improvements. By the time Google releases a map app many customers may already be committed to the default experience.
Some folks may continue to make comparisons between the two and switch back, but the majority may not and thus an easy win for Apple where if there were a competing Google Maps they would face a far steeper challenge even with time to improve their own product.
As for partnering with MS I think Apple simply wanted to go on their own considering that they were already were severing a partnership over maps.
Part of the rationale for cutting ties with Google Maps seems to have been to avoid being reliant on a major competitor for core functionality. Partnering with Microsoft would simply have been trading one competitor for another. Presumably this is the same reason they didn't partner with Nokia either.
"But if the old agreement between Apple and Google expired in the first half of 2013 (which, again, my own sources familiar with the matter agree to be the case), that means the deal was set to expire halfway through the expected year-long life cycle for iOS 6. If Apple had stuck with Google Maps for another year they would have been forced to renegotiate with Google in a situation where both sides at the table would know that Apple either (a) had to agree to whatever terms Google demanded to extend the deal; or (b) would be forced to swap the mapping back-end of iOS 6 midway through its development cycle."
I was talking with a friend of mine last night on the iPhone. She was complaining that her iPhone was working poorly, and she was frustrated with it. I asked if she had updated to iOS 6 yet, since sometimes a restore cycle can clear things up. She told me, no, she wasn't, because she heard maps were terrible. I said, "did you hear they are terrible, or have you used them and think they're terrible?" She said she heard only. Interestingly, though, she said she had been using turn-by-turn with "a voice telling her when to turn." I asked her to go to Settings and check, and sure enough, she had updated and actually liked new Maps.
I don't deny that new Maps aren't at the level that GMaps were, but they're not really that terrible, either. Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad, at least in my experience, and has improved since the betas.
>Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad
I think this is another example of the biggest general complaint about apple Maps, that it's too US-centric. Here in Europe a mapping program that can't do transit is a joke.
Un-fucking-believable. The CEO of Apple has come right out and admitted that Maps is sub-par, and the Apple fans are still trying to pretend that the problems are not real.
This is not just an "end user" problem it is a developer problem. Our "hyper local" app looks (and is) terrible on iOS6 but runs just fine on iOS5 (with Google mapping).
iOS was the choice for the lead mobile platform but with iOS6 take up levels running high we may have to switch to Android to be able to demonstrate all of our ideas.
Wouldn't you have noticed that three months ago when you downloaded the beta after WWDC? If you were displeased, you could have worked around MapKit. Sure, you shouldn't have to, but I wouldn't blame Apple for making your app "terrible" when you've had plenty of time to make it not that way.
As a developer, you can include whatever map tiles you want in your application - if Apple Maps are bad for you, you can just switch to Google or Bing or whatever. Don't blame or abandon the platform for what is within your capability to change.
I found this week the true extent of how terrible the new iOS Maps is, when I needed to find a hospital. We needed to go to the ER in the middle of the night, and were stuck waiting at a particular hospital that was nearest to us.
I knew there was another, better hospital with a better reputation down the freeway (perhaps 5 miles) and wanted to call to ask what their wait time was. I searched "hospital" and the nearest one provided was 25 miles away. I knew where the one I wanted was and it was no where to be found on iOS Maps.
I also searched for "emergency clinics" in various naming forms, knowing of the ones I would try first… and again, came up empty of all the ones that I knew existed.
I now have a shortcut to Google Maps on my home screen and will only use iOS maps for turn-by-turn directions. I was very frustrated to begin with that night, and Apple disaster of a Map app didn't help.
Crazy thing is according to TomTom there is no problem in the actual map data they provided. (I think they're right. I've driven across Europe without major problems using TomTom. There were no complaints about the TomTom App according to the 4.5 star reviews). According to TomTom, Appel combines their data with data from other sources and Apple has a problem combining/rendering the data...
What to say? The fact that such a public letter had to be issued means that there's a lot of push-back. Apple just doesn't do that. In fact, I don't remember any software company doing this. I could be wrong. This feels unprecedented.
Not one person posting on HN and the many blogs really knows what happened behind the scenes. Apple engineers are not known for being dumb. Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know.
So the question might very well be: Why did they do it?
This couldn't have been out of spite. Just to kick Google off the platform. One just doesn't do that. Maintaining a complex code-base such as iOS is difficult enough. Adding to that the friction of delivering a substandard product is not something one does without very good reasons.
Conjecture is all we have from the outside. My humble guess is that it had to come down to a business deal they did not want to make. The details of the deal are not important. Who was right and who was wrong isn't important. What is important is that whatever they had in front of them convinced Apple management that it they had no choice but to, effectively, downgrade the next release with Maps.
I already know of a lot of non-tech people, particularly outside the US, who are livid about Maps. After dutifully upgrading their devices to iOS 6 they discover that Maps are, in their words, "crap", "useless", "unreliable", "a joke", "not accurate", "una mierda" (shit), etc. The reason for the strong feelings is that, let's face it, if a good tool such as Google Maps is available to you, you might tend to use it.
And a lot of people would use it all the time. My own wife relies on Google Maps all the time. Thankfully she was wise enough to marry a geek who promptly told her not to upgrade her iPhone 4S to iOS 6 and not to swap it out for an iPhone 5. In fact, not one person in my family will do either of those things. And that is the case --that has to be the case-- for millions of people at this point.
This is the data we are not getting and that Apple will probably never release. I own eight iOS devices. Not one of them will be upgraded to iOS 6. In fact, the upgrades stop here until either Maps starts to get really good marks. And, of course, we probably would have purchased at least three iPhone 5's. Not happening. I'll get one for development but it will not be activated.
How many millions are in this boat? If someone is a heavy Google Maps user it makes no sense to get an iPhone 5. What's wrong with a 4S? Nothing. Use their website you say? Not the same, most would say.
As a developer there's a lesson that needs reinforcing every-so-often. What better way to reinforce it than to see a tech giant make some of the mistakes lesser companies make: If you can at all help it, don't base your product on someone else's technology. Don't make someone else's technology such an important part of your offering that not having them will hurt you. Of course, sometimes you have no choice.
As a user and a developer I view iOS 6 as a significant, if not huge, step backwards. Between Maps and the eviscerated app store one has to ask that cliche-ish question: What were they thinking?
When people say Maps is a "huge step backwards", are they actually using the product? I mostly use my phone for driving directions, and the addition of turn-by-turn navigation has been a huge step forward. Maybe I'm the one iPhone user in the world who thinks Maps is awesome, but that seems unlikely. It seems more likely that this is just another case of the "vocal minority" being amplified by uncritical journalists. Remember what happened when Facebook first released the News Feed? :-)
"Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know.
So the question might very well be: Why did they do it?"
A theory:
Maybe they did it because Apple has an unhealthy, top-down corporate culture that doesn't encourage dissent or whistle-blowing? Nobody said stop because it isn't the Apple way?
To me (not an Apple user or Apple employee) their corporate culture, their values, are defined by secrecy, leader-worship, and a particular kind arrogance. Not necessarily at the level of individual employees, but throughout the organisation as a whole. In such environments, especially when the company is highly successful and seems to be able to do no wrong, it becomes difficult for individuals and even groups to say stop. And even bad ideas and technologies gain momentum.
Apple is a great company, make great products, and deserve their success. I just hope that Tim Cook is trying to get rid of the leader worship that surrounded Steve Jobs.
Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know.
They know exactly that. Luckily, it's a server driven service, so over time everything can magically get better. They are going to aggressively harvest user data throughout the getting better process. Their options were: launch bad and get better as fast as possible (using millions of devices for feedback) or spend a few years doing things by hand then still releasing something subpar. Rip the bandaid off now.
In every other case HN screams "more data > clever algorithms!" -- this is their way of more data. It'll be painful at first, but it will get better quickly. It has only been a week since public public release. It has been sucking in betas for months too. None of this is new, exciting, or newsworthy. Release your burdens and get back to work.
> What to say? The fact that such a public letter had to be issued means that there's a lot of push-back. Apple just doesn't do that. In fact, I don't remember any software company doing this. I could be wrong. This feels unprecedented.
At Orange, we strive to make world-class products that deliver the best experience possible to our customers. Except when we feel that someone else is doing it better in which case we strive to eliminate the obviously superior product from our walled garden.
With the launch of our shitty Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment. We are sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers but we are doing everything we can to make shitty Maps better, except to provide you what you want right now, a working map.
We launched shitty Maps initially with the first version of Orange. As time progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better shitty Maps including features such as really bad directions, never understands your voice integration, Flyover the wrong location and vector-based maps.
In order to do this, we had to create a new version of shitty Maps from the ground up, and though its not ready for prime time we are so worried about our competition that we dumped them prematurely from our walled garden and forced this abomination on you.
There are already more than 100 million Orange devices using the new shitty Maps, with more and more joining us every day. And you know that this is because we reduced your choice to our inferior product, which is what we have the right to do since we own your phone and you don't.
In just over a week, Orange users with the new shitty Maps have already searched for nearly half a billion locations and some actually did find a few locations. The more our customers use our Maps the sooner we will make another billion dollars and we greatly appreciate the fact you have no real choice now that you have our phone in your pocket.
While we’re improving shitty Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map apps from the Orange Store, but good luck finding them as we also created a new nightmare in our Apps store that makes replacing our shitty apps more difficult than ever. We know that the huge majority of Orange users won't have a clue as to what we mean by bookmarking, and of course that is just fine with us. Just use our maps anyway, just like we planned.
Everything we do at Orange is aimed at making our products the only product you use. We know that you expect that from us, and we will keep working non-stop until EVERYONE in our walled garden is tired of the BS and gets an Android.
I think what they say about "Internet time" and the length of people's memories might be correct. This is, in fact, very in keeping with Apple's character. Apple doesn't often screw up, but when they do, they will definitely own up to it. (Keeping in mind that your buddy Joe or some high-priced analyst claiming that Apple screwed up is not the same thing as them actually screwing up...)
Apple has built a reputation of only releasing products that were absolutely completed and quality controlled. From my understanding, the company ethos has been that any defect, no matter how small, would result in the product being delayed.
Speaking from my own perspective, admission or not, I think it's the break in that expectation that has me disappointed.
I don't know how to respond to this other than "lol".
Apple often releases products that many consumers would consider "incomplete". The only difference is that Apple never admitted to being wrong ever. Their branding depends on being seen as shiny software company-upon-a-hill. That's the only difference here, they admitted to making a bad decision. Their little spat with google just made this an unusually bad one; one that they couldn't paper over.
Maybe from a hardware point of view, but not from a software point of view. Case in point, iTunes is one of the worst pieces of software I've ever had to use. They could have made it so much easier to add music, etc, but it is probably the worst piece of software that I'm FORCED to use.
I don't think I realized what an actual issue this is... Cook isn't speaking to people who have been following this debacle since the beta, he's speaking to people who think the only way to get location info is through the "maps" button on their phone.
Let's hope, for the sake of those people at least, Apple can get some better data.
From a purely competitive standpoint, this is why Google should be releasing their Google Maps app immediately, and if Apple drags their feet, they should launch a lawsuit to force them to do so.
First off, it would probably be a really good PR move for Google.
Second, if Apple dragged their feet in terms of approval and Google sued them, it might force some changed in terms of how anti-competitively the App store behaves. I could totally see the Justice Dept or FTC stepping in the way they did with Microsoft.
Lastly, if Google added their maps app, it would immediately supplant the Apple app, and a lot less people would use Apple Maps. This would give Apple less data to make their maps better, and keep them at a competitive disadvantage for years.
I think the best strategic move for Google is to wait. They should allow the Maps issue to continue to tarnish the iPhone 5 launch for another month or two, then release their own Maps app that will capture the marketshare of iPhone power users (the people Apple actually needs who would send in problem reports). This would let the dark cloud remain over the iPhone 5 long enough to tarnish it in most peoples' minds, but not long enough to let Apple to get any substantial data improvements from it.
PR move wise, they've already won the PR battle. Everybody who owns an iPhone 5 or everyone who has considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google (and now Android) has a superior maps offering. By offering a Google Maps app on the iPhone, it just gives customers one reason less to stick with Android.
It will be hard for Google to prove the anti-competitiveness of the App store. It would be quite interesting though - Android has the ability to use different App stores, while Apple certainly does not. It sounds unfair, but I wonder if a court feels the same way.
Pretty sure Apple will be at a disadvantage for years regardless. They've never been a data company as it is, and there's no reason to believe that they could suddenly go out and put together their own maps like Google has done. Better maps does not necessarily equate to having more usage data either.
I see this a few times on here about DOJ or FTC stepping on to Apple like Microsoft, and I think it's pretty off base.
In order for that to happen a few things need to occur. First, the government needs to prove that Apple has a monopoly. Here are some numbers from NPD on smartphone marketshare domestically: https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/press-releases/pr...
Windows 95 57.4
Windows 98 17.2
Windows NT 11
Mac OS 5
DOS 3.8
Linux 2.1
Windows 3.11 1.1
Unix .8
OS/2 .5
Others 1
So at that time Windows accounted for roughly: 87% of the market! And then beyond the government determining they had a monopoly, they had to show that Microsoft was abusing it's monopoly in anticompetitive ways. They concluded they were through agreements with OEMs and others to keep other software off the machines. Basically OEMs would install Windows and IE, and not make deals to install Netscape or other software. And part of that decision also had to do with the fact that in 1998-2000 as broadband was nascent in much of the country, getting new software wasn't exactly as easy as a 5 minute or less download.
And even still there are legitimate criticisms of the US DOJ case against Microsoft.
Finally though, it doesn't seem to me that this could be done by DOJ/FTC at all. Apple doesn't have a market monopoly. Since it is a device that they produce hardware and software for, and have from the beginning asserted full control over the app store, and other market alternatives (often cheaper) readily exist, I wouldn't expect any action.
There's a more important gamble in play at the moment:
Maps are not Siri, they're not a shiny aluminum cover or impressively slim industrial design: they are one of the core features that people own smartphones for. Would you really get a smartphone that had totally broken maps?
So there's a race: how much can Google steal Apple's thunder before Apple can build a reasonably competitive maps application? I suspect Google is considering how much permanent damage they can score to Apple's marketshare through this debacle.
> While we’re improving Maps, you can try alternatives by
> downloading map apps from the App Store like Bing, MapQuest
> and Waze, or use Google or Nokia maps by going to their
> websites and creating an icon on your home screen to their
> web app.
I was quite surprised they listed competitors. Is this an unusual move or a normal/expected thing to do in a case like this?
This is pathetic. I'm surprised no one has hit them up with a false advertising claim over their phone not providing what they wanted (directions, in many cases transit directions)
I've not heard a single person using apple maps say "this is good", every single person states its a downgrade. Apple need to get their act together and realize what they've done is lost a major set of consumer confidence here and should do everything in their power to set the situation right.
I for one was about to do the switch from Android to iphone with the iphone 5 coming out. After seeing apple maps, i've decided that i'll probably just buy the new Nexus when it comes out. Maps are the most important app on my phone besides the dialer and text messaging...not having maps thats anything less than what i've got today is simply not something i'm willing to negotiate.
Google will and should do nothing, this is all completely in their favor at this point. IOS might just have taken its first fatal blow.
Someone was telling me only a couple of days ago about a time when Google Maps guided her to a nonexistent building out in the middle of nowhere next to some farm field in Pennsylvania. That story and some of my own Google Maps Fail experiences wouldn't scare me off of Google Maps since the tool, although sometimes mistaken, is much better than what I used to navigate back in the 90s! Reminds me of Louis C.K. joking about people complaining about not being able to get on WiFi when they're magically sitting in a chair 30,000 feet up in the sky. Apple wanted to build a mapping tool, and they'd probably get complaints from folks on here no matter whether they started with an excellent data source or whether they broke from their tradition and took a gutsy move that might hurt the user experience for a while. :)
I don't own an iPhone and never used one, but reading the comments is surprising. I didn't realize how bad the Google Maps app was for iPhone, ie. no turn-by-turn, large ads, et.al. I'm rather shocked that people are complaining so much about this one app in the entire iOS ecosystem and if their lives depended so much on maps that they now refuse to upgrade to iOS6 over it, what were they paying $300+ awful reception (in Los Angeles) per phone for the past several iterations for when you can get an Android w/ turn-by-turn for $50?
Why the current maps is what they are is left to conjecture, but I wonder that if there was a push-back about no turn-by-turn and lower quality maps for the past, idk, 2 years, if Apple would have released their new version of maps.
I never got the impression that Apple listened to or cared too much about what their customers wanted, nor do I think they have the required data abilities to deal with creating a good mapping algorithm. It is quite possible, that with zero to little feedback about no turn-by-turn, that iOS meant far more to the customer than maps. As a passive observer, I am wonder why maps alone is creating so much push-back. Isn't there something special about iOS that moves people to spend their hard-earned money on each next device, often with no convincing improvements, sight-unseen?
Considering that Apple knew that every single aspect of its software will come under scrutiny, Releasing the software in this state indicates callous attitude towards the users.
Do I believe that the software will improve? Yes.. eventually. I know in enterprise software provides like IBM tend to ship hardware with incomplete software and rely in service packs to complete the functions.And if Apple thinks that the same model will work for Consumer products, then they are plain wrong.
Apple should have released these maps as a free beta in the App store 6 months before iOS 6 was released. People would have gotten their laughs off the bad data out, but Apple could brush them off as "it's just a beta", and they'd have 6 months to fix the most egregious issues, and third parties can get local transit apps ready. Then when iOS 6 replaces the Maps app, even if it's not up the level of Google Maps, it's no longer news, and there's no huge backlash.
Hmmm. Contrite lasted two paragraphs before we got some defiant bragging about just how great Apple is with "There's already 100 million users!!" Just in case we wondered whether an inflated sense of self importance might have helped contribute to this fiasco ;-)
What should they have said? Simply "The more our customers use our Maps the better it will get and we greatly appreciate all of the feedback we have received from you" would have gotten the point across.
[+] [-] eggbrain|13 years ago|reply
Let's assume that Apple's contract with Google was ending soon, and that Google had failed to deliver features for Apple (turn by turn, etc), meaning Apple wanted to go a different direction.
Sure, Apple then started buying up mapping companies, building their own product, but they must have known they were on a tight schedule. My question is -- why didn't they partner with Microsoft to use Bing maps?
Microsoft gets a huge win in that suddenly 40 million people are using their service. Apple gets a win in that they have a pretty comparative product out of the gate to Google Maps, and it gives them time to build up their own service.
But instead, Apple released maps that had 1/3rd the quality of the maps they had before. Where's the logic in that?
[+] [-] TetOn|13 years ago|reply
Far better to rip the band-aid off now, tune the dataset over time, and ultimately emerge with a better overall experience that you now control completely. Already the system-wide integration of mapping is far superior in that regard. That just wasn't going to happen with Google or any other partner which would forever live as a walled garden of an App.
Inaccurate mapping data is, after all, a (relatively) finite problem.
[+] [-] freyr|13 years ago|reply
It's a first generation product. By putting it out there and getting actual user feedback, this should accelerate the development.
[+] [-] sethg|13 years ago|reply
* TeleAtlas, which is in bed with Google
* Navteq, which is owned by Nokia, which has a deal to provide maps to Bing
So now maps is one of the few areas where both Google/Android and Microsoft/Nokia have a blatant advantage over Apple. Why would they want to give that up?
[+] [-] kmfrk|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dr_|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nicholassmith|13 years ago|reply
Whilst I'm sure they'd have gotten a 1-year licensing agreement with Microsoft I can only guess it'd come with a steep price tag on. Plus they'd just been burnt by dealing with a third party. Plus (again, sorry), they need to have the Maps application being used by people worldwide to improve the quality. It doesn't get better with time, it gets better with users moaning.
[+] [-] jsz0|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] duxup|13 years ago|reply
While it isn't perfect being the only big map player in that system means that over time customers will just accept that is their only option, and those with problems will see improvements. By the time Google releases a map app many customers may already be committed to the default experience.
Some folks may continue to make comparisons between the two and switch back, but the majority may not and thus an easy win for Apple where if there were a competing Google Maps they would face a far steeper challenge even with time to improve their own product.
As for partnering with MS I think Apple simply wanted to go on their own considering that they were already were severing a partnership over maps.
[+] [-] betterth|13 years ago|reply
Why go through Microsoft when their data is Nokia based anyway?
[+] [-] Cadsby|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] benihana|13 years ago|reply
"But if the old agreement between Apple and Google expired in the first half of 2013 (which, again, my own sources familiar with the matter agree to be the case), that means the deal was set to expire halfway through the expected year-long life cycle for iOS 6. If Apple had stuck with Google Maps for another year they would have been forced to renegotiate with Google in a situation where both sides at the table would know that Apple either (a) had to agree to whatever terms Google demanded to extend the deal; or (b) would be forced to swap the mapping back-end of iOS 6 midway through its development cycle."
http://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_switc...
[+] [-] eddieroger|13 years ago|reply
I was talking with a friend of mine last night on the iPhone. She was complaining that her iPhone was working poorly, and she was frustrated with it. I asked if she had updated to iOS 6 yet, since sometimes a restore cycle can clear things up. She told me, no, she wasn't, because she heard maps were terrible. I said, "did you hear they are terrible, or have you used them and think they're terrible?" She said she heard only. Interestingly, though, she said she had been using turn-by-turn with "a voice telling her when to turn." I asked her to go to Settings and check, and sure enough, she had updated and actually liked new Maps.
I don't deny that new Maps aren't at the level that GMaps were, but they're not really that terrible, either. Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad, at least in my experience, and has improved since the betas.
[+] [-] lmm|13 years ago|reply
I think this is another example of the biggest general complaint about apple Maps, that it's too US-centric. Here in Europe a mapping program that can't do transit is a joke.
[+] [-] mikeash|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brazzy|13 years ago|reply
How many of the users don't require accurate, up-to-date map data in a map application?
[+] [-] bdfh42|13 years ago|reply
iOS was the choice for the lead mobile platform but with iOS6 take up levels running high we may have to switch to Android to be able to demonstrate all of our ideas.
[+] [-] chucknelson|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eddieroger|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kylec|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drewjoh|13 years ago|reply
I knew there was another, better hospital with a better reputation down the freeway (perhaps 5 miles) and wanted to call to ask what their wait time was. I searched "hospital" and the nearest one provided was 25 miles away. I knew where the one I wanted was and it was no where to be found on iOS Maps.
I also searched for "emergency clinics" in various naming forms, knowing of the ones I would try first… and again, came up empty of all the ones that I knew existed.
I now have a shortcut to Google Maps on my home screen and will only use iOS maps for turn-by-turn directions. I was very frustrated to begin with that night, and Apple disaster of a Map app didn't help.
[+] [-] digitalengineer|13 years ago|reply
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/tomtom-apple-maps-...
[+] [-] robomartin|13 years ago|reply
Not one person posting on HN and the many blogs really knows what happened behind the scenes. Apple engineers are not known for being dumb. Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know.
So the question might very well be: Why did they do it?
This couldn't have been out of spite. Just to kick Google off the platform. One just doesn't do that. Maintaining a complex code-base such as iOS is difficult enough. Adding to that the friction of delivering a substandard product is not something one does without very good reasons.
Conjecture is all we have from the outside. My humble guess is that it had to come down to a business deal they did not want to make. The details of the deal are not important. Who was right and who was wrong isn't important. What is important is that whatever they had in front of them convinced Apple management that it they had no choice but to, effectively, downgrade the next release with Maps.
I already know of a lot of non-tech people, particularly outside the US, who are livid about Maps. After dutifully upgrading their devices to iOS 6 they discover that Maps are, in their words, "crap", "useless", "unreliable", "a joke", "not accurate", "una mierda" (shit), etc. The reason for the strong feelings is that, let's face it, if a good tool such as Google Maps is available to you, you might tend to use it.
And a lot of people would use it all the time. My own wife relies on Google Maps all the time. Thankfully she was wise enough to marry a geek who promptly told her not to upgrade her iPhone 4S to iOS 6 and not to swap it out for an iPhone 5. In fact, not one person in my family will do either of those things. And that is the case --that has to be the case-- for millions of people at this point.
This is the data we are not getting and that Apple will probably never release. I own eight iOS devices. Not one of them will be upgraded to iOS 6. In fact, the upgrades stop here until either Maps starts to get really good marks. And, of course, we probably would have purchased at least three iPhone 5's. Not happening. I'll get one for development but it will not be activated.
How many millions are in this boat? If someone is a heavy Google Maps user it makes no sense to get an iPhone 5. What's wrong with a 4S? Nothing. Use their website you say? Not the same, most would say.
As a developer there's a lesson that needs reinforcing every-so-often. What better way to reinforce it than to see a tech giant make some of the mistakes lesser companies make: If you can at all help it, don't base your product on someone else's technology. Don't make someone else's technology such an important part of your offering that not having them will hurt you. Of course, sometimes you have no choice.
As a user and a developer I view iOS 6 as a significant, if not huge, step backwards. Between Maps and the eviscerated app store one has to ask that cliche-ish question: What were they thinking?
Wouldn't we like to know.
[+] [-] markerdmann|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andyjohnson0|13 years ago|reply
A theory:
Maybe they did it because Apple has an unhealthy, top-down corporate culture that doesn't encourage dissent or whistle-blowing? Nobody said stop because it isn't the Apple way?
To me (not an Apple user or Apple employee) their corporate culture, their values, are defined by secrecy, leader-worship, and a particular kind arrogance. Not necessarily at the level of individual employees, but throughout the organisation as a whole. In such environments, especially when the company is highly successful and seems to be able to do no wrong, it becomes difficult for individuals and even groups to say stop. And even bad ideas and technologies gain momentum.
Apple is a great company, make great products, and deserve their success. I just hope that Tim Cook is trying to get rid of the leader worship that surrounded Steve Jobs.
[+] [-] seiji|13 years ago|reply
They know exactly that. Luckily, it's a server driven service, so over time everything can magically get better. They are going to aggressively harvest user data throughout the getting better process. Their options were: launch bad and get better as fast as possible (using millions of devices for feedback) or spend a few years doing things by hand then still releasing something subpar. Rip the bandaid off now.
In every other case HN screams "more data > clever algorithms!" -- this is their way of more data. It'll be painful at first, but it will get better quickly. It has only been a week since public public release. It has been sucking in betas for months too. None of this is new, exciting, or newsworthy. Release your burdens and get back to work.
[+] [-] jad|13 years ago|reply
Steve Jobs held a press conference for "Antennagate": http://www.apple.com/apple-events/july-2010/
[+] [-] catfish|13 years ago|reply
With the launch of our shitty Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment. We are sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers but we are doing everything we can to make shitty Maps better, except to provide you what you want right now, a working map.
We launched shitty Maps initially with the first version of Orange. As time progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better shitty Maps including features such as really bad directions, never understands your voice integration, Flyover the wrong location and vector-based maps.
In order to do this, we had to create a new version of shitty Maps from the ground up, and though its not ready for prime time we are so worried about our competition that we dumped them prematurely from our walled garden and forced this abomination on you.
There are already more than 100 million Orange devices using the new shitty Maps, with more and more joining us every day. And you know that this is because we reduced your choice to our inferior product, which is what we have the right to do since we own your phone and you don't.
In just over a week, Orange users with the new shitty Maps have already searched for nearly half a billion locations and some actually did find a few locations. The more our customers use our Maps the sooner we will make another billion dollars and we greatly appreciate the fact you have no real choice now that you have our phone in your pocket.
While we’re improving shitty Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map apps from the Orange Store, but good luck finding them as we also created a new nightmare in our Apps store that makes replacing our shitty apps more difficult than ever. We know that the huge majority of Orange users won't have a clue as to what we mean by bookmarking, and of course that is just fine with us. Just use our maps anyway, just like we planned.
Everything we do at Orange is aimed at making our products the only product you use. We know that you expect that from us, and we will keep working non-stop until EVERYONE in our walled garden is tired of the BS and gets an Android.
[+] [-] jballanc|13 years ago|reply
See, for example, four years ago when they issued an apology and a free account extension for the launch of MobileMe: http://www.macworld.com/article/1134530/mobileme.html
[+] [-] rodh|13 years ago|reply
Speaking from my own perspective, admission or not, I think it's the break in that expectation that has me disappointed.
[+] [-] cbs|13 years ago|reply
Apple often releases products that many consumers would consider "incomplete". The only difference is that Apple never admitted to being wrong ever. Their branding depends on being seen as shiny software company-upon-a-hill. That's the only difference here, they admitted to making a bad decision. Their little spat with google just made this an unusually bad one; one that they couldn't paper over.
[+] [-] steve8918|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SnydenBitchy|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tammer|13 years ago|reply
Let's hope, for the sake of those people at least, Apple can get some better data.
[+] [-] steve8918|13 years ago|reply
First off, it would probably be a really good PR move for Google.
Second, if Apple dragged their feet in terms of approval and Google sued them, it might force some changed in terms of how anti-competitively the App store behaves. I could totally see the Justice Dept or FTC stepping in the way they did with Microsoft.
Lastly, if Google added their maps app, it would immediately supplant the Apple app, and a lot less people would use Apple Maps. This would give Apple less data to make their maps better, and keep them at a competitive disadvantage for years.
[+] [-] tdfx|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] salman89|13 years ago|reply
PR move wise, they've already won the PR battle. Everybody who owns an iPhone 5 or everyone who has considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google (and now Android) has a superior maps offering. By offering a Google Maps app on the iPhone, it just gives customers one reason less to stick with Android.
It will be hard for Google to prove the anti-competitiveness of the App store. It would be quite interesting though - Android has the ability to use different App stores, while Apple certainly does not. It sounds unfair, but I wonder if a court feels the same way.
Pretty sure Apple will be at a disadvantage for years regardless. They've never been a data company as it is, and there's no reason to believe that they could suddenly go out and put together their own maps like Google has done. Better maps does not necessarily equate to having more usage data either.
[+] [-] dailyrorschach|13 years ago|reply
In order for that to happen a few things need to occur. First, the government needs to prove that Apple has a monopoly. Here are some numbers from NPD on smartphone marketshare domestically: https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/press-releases/pr...
Apple: 31 percent Samsung: 24 percent HTC: 15 percent Motorola: 12 percent LG: 6 percent
So right there, it's a tough case to make that Apple has a dominant market monopoly as compared to Microsoft in 1998.
Here's a CNET article I found quickly from 1999, one year-ish after the DOJ brought their case: http://news.cnet.com/Windows-95-remains-most-popular-operati...
Windows 95 57.4 Windows 98 17.2 Windows NT 11 Mac OS 5 DOS 3.8 Linux 2.1 Windows 3.11 1.1 Unix .8 OS/2 .5 Others 1
So at that time Windows accounted for roughly: 87% of the market! And then beyond the government determining they had a monopoly, they had to show that Microsoft was abusing it's monopoly in anticompetitive ways. They concluded they were through agreements with OEMs and others to keep other software off the machines. Basically OEMs would install Windows and IE, and not make deals to install Netscape or other software. And part of that decision also had to do with the fact that in 1998-2000 as broadband was nascent in much of the country, getting new software wasn't exactly as easy as a 5 minute or less download.
And even still there are legitimate criticisms of the US DOJ case against Microsoft.
Finally though, it doesn't seem to me that this could be done by DOJ/FTC at all. Apple doesn't have a market monopoly. Since it is a device that they produce hardware and software for, and have from the beginning asserted full control over the app store, and other market alternatives (often cheaper) readily exist, I wouldn't expect any action.
[+] [-] wheels|13 years ago|reply
Maps are not Siri, they're not a shiny aluminum cover or impressively slim industrial design: they are one of the core features that people own smartphones for. Would you really get a smartphone that had totally broken maps?
So there's a race: how much can Google steal Apple's thunder before Apple can build a reasonably competitive maps application? I suspect Google is considering how much permanent damage they can score to Apple's marketshare through this debacle.
[+] [-] lewisflude|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jug6ernaut|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ajanuary|13 years ago|reply
I was quite surprised they listed competitors. Is this an unusual move or a normal/expected thing to do in a case like this?
[+] [-] verelo|13 years ago|reply
I've not heard a single person using apple maps say "this is good", every single person states its a downgrade. Apple need to get their act together and realize what they've done is lost a major set of consumer confidence here and should do everything in their power to set the situation right.
I for one was about to do the switch from Android to iphone with the iphone 5 coming out. After seeing apple maps, i've decided that i'll probably just buy the new Nexus when it comes out. Maps are the most important app on my phone besides the dialer and text messaging...not having maps thats anything less than what i've got today is simply not something i'm willing to negotiate.
Google will and should do nothing, this is all completely in their favor at this point. IOS might just have taken its first fatal blow.
[+] [-] stephenhuey|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tarr11|13 years ago|reply
You wouldn't want Apple building iPlane this way, right?
[+] [-] cicloid|13 years ago|reply
The alternatives are almost the same as when it launched. Even having those. How many are having real problems or just hating because is the new fad?
[+] [-] dizzystar|13 years ago|reply
Why the current maps is what they are is left to conjecture, but I wonder that if there was a push-back about no turn-by-turn and lower quality maps for the past, idk, 2 years, if Apple would have released their new version of maps.
I never got the impression that Apple listened to or cared too much about what their customers wanted, nor do I think they have the required data abilities to deal with creating a good mapping algorithm. It is quite possible, that with zero to little feedback about no turn-by-turn, that iOS meant far more to the customer than maps. As a passive observer, I am wonder why maps alone is creating so much push-back. Isn't there something special about iOS that moves people to spend their hard-earned money on each next device, often with no convincing improvements, sight-unseen?
[+] [-] markshepard|13 years ago|reply
Do I believe that the software will improve? Yes.. eventually. I know in enterprise software provides like IBM tend to ship hardware with incomplete software and rely in service packs to complete the functions.And if Apple thinks that the same model will work for Consumer products, then they are plain wrong.
[+] [-] kalleboo|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jusben1369|13 years ago|reply
What should they have said? Simply "The more our customers use our Maps the better it will get and we greatly appreciate all of the feedback we have received from you" would have gotten the point across.