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Steam Frame

1915 points| Philpax | 4 months ago |store.steampowered.com | reply

698 comments

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[+] modeless|4 months ago|reply
Foveated streaming! That's a great idea. Foveated rendering is complicated to implement with current rendering APIs in a way that actually improves performance, but foveated streaming seems like a much easier win that applies to all content automatically. And the dedicated 6 GHz dongle should do a much better job at streaming than typical wifi routers.

> Just like any SteamOS device, install your own apps, open a browser, do what you want: It's your PC.

It's an ARM Linux PC that presumably gives you root access, in addition to being a VR headset. And it has an SD card slot for storage expansion. Very cool, should be very hackable. Very unlike every other standalone VR headset.

> 2160 x 2160 LCD (per eye) 72-144Hz refresh rate

Roughly equivalent resolution to Quest 3 and less than Vision Pro. This won't be suitable as a monitor replacement for general desktop use. But the price is hopefully low. I'd love to see a high-end option with higher resolution displays in the future, good enough for monitor replacement.

> Monochrome passthrough

So AR is not a focus here, which makes sense. However:

> User accessible front expansion port w/ Dual high speed camera interface (8 lanes @ 2.5Gbps MIPI) / PCIe Gen 4 interface (1-lane)

Full color AR could be done as an optional expansion pack. And I can imagine people might come up with other fun things to put in there. Mouth tracking?

One thing I don't see here is optional tracking pucks for tracking objects or full body tracking. That's something the SteamVR Lighthouse tracking ecosystem had, and the Pico standalone headset also has it.

More detail from the LTT video: Apparently it can run Android APKs too? Quest compatibility layer maybe? There's an optional accessory kit that adds a top strap (I'm surprised it isn't standard) and palm straps that enable using the controllers in the style of the Valve Index's "knuckles" controllers.

[+] bigiain|4 months ago|reply
> Foveated streaming! That's a great idea.

Back when I was in Uni, so late 80s or early 90s, my dad was Project Manager on an Air Force project for a new F-111 flight simulator, when Australia upgraded the avionics on their F-111 fighter/bombers.

The sim cockpit had a spherical dome screen and a pair of Silicon Graphics Reality Engines. One of them projected an image across the entire screen at a relatively low resolution. The other projector was on a turret that pan/tilted with the pilot's helmet, and projected a high resolution image but only in a perhaps 1.5m circle directly in from of where the helmet was aimed.

It was super fun being the project manager's kid, and getting to "play with it" on weekends sometimes. You could see what was happening while wearing the helmet and sitting in the seat if you tried - mostly ny intentionally pointing your eyes in a different direction to your head - but when you were "flying around" it was totally believable, and it _looked_ like everything was high resolution. It was also fun watching other people fly it, and being able to see where they were looking, and where they weren't looking and the enemy was speaking up on them.

[+] bob1029|4 months ago|reply
> 2160 x 2160 LCD (per eye) 72-144Hz refresh rate

I question that we could not create a special purpose video codec that handles this without trickery. The "per eye" part sounds spooky at first, but how much information is typically different between these frames? The mutual information is probably 90%+ in most VR games.

If we were to enhance something like x264 to encode the 2nd display as a residual of the 1st display, this could become much more feasible from a channel capacity standpoint. Video codecs already employ a lot of tricks to make adjacent frames that are nearly identical occupy negligible space.

This seems very similar (identical?) to the problem of efficiently encoding a 3d movie:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2D_plus_Delta

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiview_Video_Coding

[+] dagmx|4 months ago|reply
Foveated streaming is cool. FWIW the Vision Pro does that for their Mac virtual display as well, and it works really well to pump a lot more pixels through.
[+] monocasa|4 months ago|reply
Foveated streaming is wild to me. Saccades are commonly as low as 20-30ms when reading text, so guaranteeing that latency over 2.4Ghz seems Sisyphean.

I wonder if they have an ML model doing partial upscaling until the eyetracking state is propagated and the full resolution image under the new fovea position is available. It also makes me wonder if there's some way to do neural compression of the peripheral vision optimized for a nice balance between peripheral vision and hints in the embedding to allow for nicer upscaling.

[+] xeonmc|4 months ago|reply
> Roughly equivalent resolution to Quest 3 and less than Vision Pro. This won't be suitable as a monitor replacement for general desktop use. But the price is hopefully low.

Question, what is the criteria for deciding this to be the case? Could you not just move your face closer to the virtual screen to see finer details?

[+] nabakin|4 months ago|reply
And foveated streaming has a 1-2ms wireless latency on modern GPUs according to LTT. Insane.
[+] arnaudsm|4 months ago|reply
This is the first standalone headset with an open ecosystem. That's a big deal.

Meta Quests & Apple Visions require developer verification to run your own software, and provide no root access, which slowed down innovation significantly.

[+] jsheard|4 months ago|reply
Frame is obviously the main headline here, but they've also launching a new SteamOS mini-PC and a new controller.

https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steammachine

https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steamcontroller

No prices listed for any of them yet, as far as I can tell.

[+] phantasmish|4 months ago|reply
Oh hell yes. There was a leak of specs (via a benchmarking database) of an upcoming machine from Valve and I had my fingers crossed that it was a mini PC and not some VR thingy, saw this thread, and was sad for a moment before I spotted this post.

6x as powerful as the Steam deck (that I use plugged in anyway 98% of the time—I’d have bought a Steam Deck 2, but I’m glad I get the option to put money toward more performance instead of battery and screen that I don’t use) is great. Not a lot of games I want to play won’t run well at least at 1080p with specs like that.

[+] marcosscriven|4 months ago|reply
Real shame it’s only 60Hz at 4k. There’s a gap for good 120Hz@4k streaming.

Hoping the next Apple TV will do it.

Edit - updated specs claim it can do this, but it’s limited to HDMI 2.0

[+] komali2|4 months ago|reply
I am incredibly excited for the new controller. The og steam controller for me was unmatched as a controller, I could never play any first person game on anything else other than mouse and keyboard, not to mention it allows playing rts or point and clicks from the couch.

When they cancelled production I bought 8.

[+] JBiserkov|4 months ago|reply
A bit of topic, but I was wondering how much bigger is the steam machine compared to the mac mini m4, since that's what I have and is my frame of reference. Obviously comparing apples to oranges and only talking about physical volume, not features, compatibility, price, personal preferences, etc.

Mac Mini m4: 127 x 127 x 50 mm = 0.8 L

Steam Machine: 156 x 162 x 152 = 3.8 L

That's 4.76 times more volume.

[+] thefz|4 months ago|reply
> Frame is obviously the main headline here

Why? VR headsets are a dying fad of the 2020s. Way more excited for SteamOS on ARM.

[+] Insanity|4 months ago|reply
This is going to be an instant buy for me, and my first VR device ever. I've used the previous Steam VR headset over at a friends' place many times, but never bit the bullet to get one myself.

The fact that this can run standalone, doesn't have a bunch of wires dangling from it, and is pretty much a fully working Linux box makes this am almost on-brainer for me.

I do _hope_ the price is reasonable though, if it ends up being like Apple VR I might not buy into it immediately, but I'm hoping for a reasonable $1000 max price.

[+] vanadium1st|4 months ago|reply
Such a miss not having good full-color AR included. I’m a VR enthusiast with a Meta Quest 3, and it’s a shame that this headset is better than the Quest in every way except the most important one.

In my opinion, VR gaming never becomes more than a gimmick. It adds a questionable improvement in graphics and immersion at the incredibly high cost of excluding yourself from the real world. Right now it’s not worth it, and I don’t think it ever will be, no matter how good the graphics get. That’s assuming they even solve the motion sickness problem, which doesn’t seem solvable to me at this point.

The motion controls in VR will also always be severely limited by the fact that you can’t see your surroundings. You can’t meaningfully move around or swing your arms fast in any realistic home environment when you’re in full VR. You’re constantly at risk of punching something or breaking something, or both. So the controls have to become really stiff and avoid requiring wide movement, at which point you might as well just push buttons on a gamepad.

But AR is a completely different thing. No motion sickness, no risk in any movement, you can move around without silly threadmills, and no exclusion from the world. It’s truly amazing. The AR boxing, pickleball, ping pong and golf are so much closer to real thing then to a videogame adaptation, even the shitty Quest graphics don't ruin the magic. Those AR experiences don't work on videogame rules and really deserve their own name and category - they're as different from gaming as books are from movies. If VR headsets don’t die out, AR is going to be the thing that brings them to the mainstream. I just wish it had more attention, more apps, and more non-Meta mainstream platforms. Not this time, sadly.

[+] modeless|4 months ago|reply
Valve is focused on making a device that works well with their existing game catalog. It's a Steam device first, and it needs to be inexpensive to compete with Quest (which is subsidized by Meta), so they need to prioritize which features get included. I wouldn't be surprised to see a first party AR camera attachment a while after launch. The expansion port seems specifically designed for this, with the inclusion of MIPI CSI lanes for two cameras.
[+] bottlepalm|4 months ago|reply
AR is a gimmick. VR has real games people spend many hours in. People don't want to see their boring surroundings unless it's to find the couch or a bag of chips.

The real reason the Frame is monochrome AR is because the cameras are also used for IR tracking which is better in monochrome. You can use the Frame in the dark or a dimly lit room - Quest 3 you can't. For real VR users the trade off is worth it.

[+] ricardobeat|4 months ago|reply
> You can’t meaningfully move around or swing your arms fast in any realistic home environment when you’re in full VR. You’re constantly at risk of punching something or breaking something, or both.

You clear the area within the boundaries, leave a little buffer space to the walls, and respect the boundary warnings in game. No problems. You do need a few square meters without any furniture to do this.

Boxing and ping pong feel just as great in VR as they do in AR. It's more a matter of the level of immersion: AR works well for table tennis, but fantasy games are severely limited in what they can do. The most impressive experiences are always in VR - "flying in space" doesn't work while looking at your living room walls.

[+] cruano|4 months ago|reply
> It adds a questionable improvement in graphics and immersion at the incredibly high cost of excluding yourself from the real world.

That's a feature for a good number of games, if not most. For example, Resident Evil 4/8 in VR are by far the best horror experiences I've had, and part of it is that you stop seeing your living room while playing.

> The motion controls in VR will also always be severely limited by the fact that you can’t see your surroundings.

There is zero chance that aiming with a controller is more intuitive than point-and-shoot. What I get from your comment is that the movement can be awkward which is absolutely true, but plenty of games have neat ways around that. And then there are games that require no actual movement, like racing games with a sim setup.

[+] theshackleford|4 months ago|reply
I have little to no interest in AR and i'm glad they didnt waste more money or resources on it. I don't use it on my Q3 and I wouldnt use it on this.
[+] hadlock|4 months ago|reply
Apparently Valve was able to use a true cell phone chip and get more raw performance out of it by using lower res monochrome cameras, whereas qualcomm's AR-capable chips use up a lot of the wafer for processing color AR video and DSP. Given it's built to a budget, and I don't ever use AR, monochrome AR seems like an acceptable tradeoff.
[+] madsushi|4 months ago|reply
There's an expansion port on the front with a camera interface, so you could add on better AR cameras.
[+] koolala|4 months ago|reply
What pass-through apps are you using for all this? I tried pass-through pingpong but it didn't fit in my room so it clipped through the wall uncomfortably. There is AR golf?
[+] 7bit|4 months ago|reply
Most important one is so subjective. I don't care for AR a bit
[+] Night_Thastus|4 months ago|reply
The whole "foveated streaming" sounds absolutely fascinating. If they can actually pull off doing it accurately in real time, that would be incredible. I can't even imagine the technical work behind the scenes to make it all work.

I'd really like to know what the experience is like of using it, both for games and something like video.

[+] pixelpoet|4 months ago|reply
There's an awesome shader on shadertoy that illustrates just how extreme the fovea focus is: https://www.shadertoy.com/view/4dsXzM

Linus the shrill/yappy poodle and his channel are less than worthless IMO.

[+] modeless|4 months ago|reply
Foveated streaming should be much easier to implement than foveated rendering. Just encode two streams, a low res one and a high res one, and move the high res one around.
[+] ghosty141|4 months ago|reply
I'm super curious how they will implement it, if it's a general api in steam vr that headsets like the Bigscreen Beyond could use or if it's more tailored towards the Frame. I hope it's the first as to me it sounds like all you need is eye input and the two streams, the rest could be done by steam-vr.
[+] ynx|4 months ago|reply
If you use a Quest Pro and use Steam Link with a WiFi 6E access point, that should accurately represent the experience of using it.

It's close to imperceptible in normal usage.

[+] makeitdouble|4 months ago|reply
The dedicated communication dongle between the PC and the headset sounds like a real game changer.

Right now getting fast enough and reliable wireless connection means either tweaking to death one's setup or spending car money on the entire setup. In particular normal people usually don't realize how crappy their wi-fi and assume it's all the same, which would end in blaming the poor perf on the headset.

[+] cube2222|4 months ago|reply
This is fantastic!

A while ago I bought the Quest 3 and set it up with WiFi 6 for streaming games. It's a decent setup, but I only bought it cause I was tired of waiting for the "rumored new headset by Valve".

And it seems everything on my wishlist is here:

- foveated rendering based on eye tracking - this is excellent, and was I think only available in the Quest Pro until now

- a dedicated wireless streaming dongle, with multiple radios on the headset - awesome, tuning WiFi 6 got me to a good-enough state, but I'm looking forward to a dedicated out-of-the-box solution

- pancake lenses

- inside-out tracking

In general, having had the Valve Index previously, and then using the Quest 3, it's a night-and-day difference to play something like Alyx wireless. Much better clarity with pancake lenses, too.

Main surprise here is their usage of a Snapdragon chip and not AMD, didn't expect this. I thought it would effectively be a steam deck hardware wise. Curious to see how well that works, esp. for standalone gaming. In practice though you'll likely want to be streaming any "pc-first" titles anyway.

[+] ge0n111|4 months ago|reply
I think they made the right choice with Snapdragon chip... it will drop in and work as a dev kit for all the android toolchains that support quest3, devs will easily port quest3 games etc... so it's basically a non-spyware quest3 which is what everyone wants at this point. Custom drivers on the wifi 6 dongle are going to likely offer the best wireless experience, which again is what everyone wants.

I'm curious how meta responds imo the only way to compete is on price/ease of use but i'm not interested in another quest the 'social features' are just an excuse to collect data.

[+] skeaker|4 months ago|reply
This being a whole system that will allow you to put whatever software you want onto it makes me think that it might actually succeed at being what the Vision Pro wanted to be.
[+] tym0|4 months ago|reply
Now that they've ported Steam to Android with FEX + Proton [0] (what this is running), the question is will they release it for the rest of Android devices? There is a ton of Android gaming handhelds and people are already experimenting with things like Winlator [1] but having well supported way could be awesome.

[0] https://github.com/FEX-Emu/FEX

[1] https://github.com/brunodev85/winlator

[+] bastawhiz|4 months ago|reply
It really cannot be understated how big of a deal this is. The tech here is impressive AND they're not trying to lock you in. Practically speaking it's the only VR headset that holds real-world appeal for the vast majority of gamers, because it plays the games they're already playing.
[+] Pfhortune|4 months ago|reply
At last! I really enjoyed my time with the Oculus Quest 2, but could not stomach having Meta in my house/on my network. I sold it and resolved to either wait until I could get a good deal on an Index or Valve came around with something new, and now I can look forward to VR again!
[+] torginus|4 months ago|reply
Whoo - first party support - including a graphics stack on ARM!

I hope this means the GPU and drivers is advanced enough to run fully featured modern video games.

Windows for ARM was kinda sunk by the fact that the GPU wasn't compatible enough due to the crappy drivers and outdated GPU uArch optimized for mobile games.

I'm still kinda on the fence about VR, but I hope ARM + Linux succeeds in a big way and this'll make a truly handheld Steam Deck possible.

[+] seabombs|4 months ago|reply
Brilliant, I'm anxiously awaiting Australian pricing details (and release dates...) but could definitely seeing myself getting one of these as my first VR device, and the controller looks great too.

Being able to run games on device (and on ARM) is very cool, but I wonder if there is a cheaper/lighter/longer-battery-life version of this that is stream only? That's probably a better fit for me personally, I can't imagine not having a streaming device nearby when I would be using it.

Also hate to be picky, but looks like the frame controllers pair directly to the headset so maybe can't be used on their own? Would be nice to use them standalone too.

[+] circuit10|4 months ago|reply
One of the most interesting parts of this to me that not many people are talking about is what their approach will be to making Steam games work on ARM…

I assume they will have put a lot of work into an emulation layer (maybe an existing one like FEX) to make it usable similar to what they did with Proton? This could be really good for the Linux ARM ecosystem in general

[+] preisschild|4 months ago|reply
Apparently they are heavily funding FEX-emu now and are using that
[+] rbits|4 months ago|reply
Yes! Steam on ARM finally! I hope it works well
[+] srjek|4 months ago|reply
Steam Frame is running SteamOS on ARM, and is capable of playing games standalone, which implies ARM support in Steam. Through granted, it could be in a limited form.
[+] rudimentary_phy|4 months ago|reply
I've actually just recently started using my Quest 3 again through virtual desktop. I found the sharpening feature to actually make text look good enough that I'm able to work in it for hours uninterrupted, mostly writing papers and coding.

I'm super excited for this launch and for all the crazy open source builds, mods, and fun that are going to come from an open VR system (or at least that's my hope).

[+] jackhalford|4 months ago|reply
Nice to finally have a hackable headset on the market. I’ve been using the dji goggles for fpv flying because of vendor lock in. I wonder I could use these with OpenIPC to fly fpv with a fully open video stack.
[+] thefunnyman|4 months ago|reply
I'm surprised no one is talking about the fact that the headset is ARM and that valve has been heavily contributing to the translation layer FEX.

I love my steam deck, but lately find myself reaching for emulation handhelds like the Retroid Pocket 5 more due to smaller size, especially when I'm leaving the house. There's already projects like GameNative that try to hack steam onto these devices, but if valve offers an official client on Android and other arm devices that would be incredible.

Edit: Some interesting insights in the FEX FAQ about why it's not a great fit for Android right now [0]. Interested to see if this ARM version of steamos is installable on other devices though. RP5 can already run alternatives like Rocknix

[0] https://wiki.fex-emu.com/index.php/FAQ

[+] skywal_l|4 months ago|reply
> Steam Frame Controllers: Powered by AA batteries (rated 40 hours)

Yes, I want to see standard batteries being used more. Too bad they didn't go with this on the Steam Controller.

[+] mrguyorama|4 months ago|reply
I actually prefer rechargeable batteries.

But rechargeable lithium batteries in AA form factor are cheap and cheerful. Even low quality ones will get 20 hours in that situation. So I have no more room to complain.

Valve is weirdly good at making controllers efficient. The original steam controller could get 80 hours out of two AAs if you turn off rumble.

[+] krzyk|4 months ago|reply
Why? It is a bummer to keep them, buy them when suddently they stop working, etc.

While chargeable needs just a usb-c socket.