top | item 45920248

The end of naked locker rooms

39 points| loughnane | 3 months ago |theatlantic.com

97 comments

order

loughnane|3 months ago

> Today, the only naked bodies that many Americans will likely ever see are their own, a partner’s, or those on a screen. Gone are our unvarnished points of physical comparison—the ordinary, unposed figures of other people. In their place, we’re left with the curated ideals of social-media posts, AI-generated advertising, and pornography. The loss may seem trivial, but it also may change how people see themselves.

I think the theme of "how we see ourselves" is the defining theme of our age. Never before have we been bombarded with so much imagery while at the same time being seeing so little of real life.

pirates|3 months ago

I stayed at a ryokan in Japan recently, and of course the baths and pools are 100% nude, and people strip down naked in the changing rooms to enter them. Men and women separate at all times.

It was a new experience for me but it also felt 100% natural and by the second night it was totally normal and I didn’t feel modest or anything. There was an unspoken understanding that we’re all there to just relax and recover and help our bodies feel good. Nobody made me feel weird or self conscious, nobody stared, no one made comments or really even said much of anything outside of a few funny jokes that we all laughed at that had nothing to do with the setting.

Rendello|3 months ago

Interestingly, onsen were traditionally mixed sex until relatively recently (Meiji Restoration). As of now, mixed bathing is banned [1], though hidden in the Wikipedia notes is this:

> due to varying interpretations of terminology and local ordinances, rare instances of mixed bathing still exist at places like Tsurunoyu Onsen where the water is opaque.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onsen#Mixed_bathing

iancmceachern|3 months ago

One can have a similar experience at the Wii spa in LA. It's great, and there is even food on the top floor!

aidenn0|3 months ago

Naked locker rooms were well on the decline (at least for youth) in the '90s. I attended a martial arts gym with adults and kids, where men would regularly walk out of the shower naked and change all while holding conversations with each other.

I learned the hard way at band camp in high school that such casual nudity among a single-gender was socially unacceptable among my own generation, and after the first day changed my clothes under my towel like everybody else.

canucker2016|3 months ago

Decades ago, University of Toronto had floors in the frosh dorms which were unisex, including the washrooms/showers. I don't recall any big protests over this - people just got used to it.

I never heard of any problems, though I doubt the University administration would have publicized any problems.

marbro|3 months ago

At my state college in the 80's, most dorms and showers were unisex but I never saw anyone naked outside my dorm room.

burnt-resistor|3 months ago

Stanford's Toyon hall had coed bathrooms and showers 20 years ago. I don't know if it still does.

pmdulaney|3 months ago

It is, I think, indicative of a broader trend. When you drive past the National Cemetery on Wilshire Blvd in Westwood, there is a large statue of a naked woman (personifying victory or the glory to be accorded the fallen?). I believe it was placed there shortly after World War I. I can't imagine a similar statue would be erected today.

aidenn0|3 months ago

CGP Grey did a video on US State flags and added a mosaic to the Virginia flag, making a comment about demonetization. It, having the Seal of Virginia on it, contains a personifcation of virtue with a single breast exposed.

Apparently a Texas school district banned the Virginia flag for the same reason.

nineplay|3 months ago

> Compounding these issues is the omnipresence of cameras and social media, which has made privacy more precarious.

Buried in an article about shifts in attitudes towards nudity and porn is the actual cause. As a child of the 70s I've never given nudity in the locker rooms a second thought but now, no thank you. For my daughter? Out of the question.

I'll bring up the third rail. I am, despite all my ultra-liberal blue sensibilities, uncomfortable with individuals with XY chromosomes in my locker room. I can put in a bunch of qualifiers - if they're on hormones, if they're post op, if there's really no physical difference then I'm not concerned but there is no guarantee of course. If I look over at the locker next to me and see a penis, I'm out.

scarecrowbob|3 months ago

For the last year and a half I've been living off grid in rural Colorado. I have a membership in the community rec center (which is very nice) and town service (also very nice) so I can use their gym, but mostly to use the shower and hot tub.

Personally, I think that being in locker rooms has been healthy- it's a good reminder that some day I am going to be super wrinkly if I live that long. It's been an interesting experiment in existing in public spaces.

If you're uncomfortable in those kinds of siutations, I wouldn't tell you what to do, but honestly "getting over" being weirded out by old naked folks is definitely a thing you might find worth while to work out.

burnt-resistor|3 months ago

Upending convention for one identity category while reinforcing body-shaming is privileging selective discrimination and inconsistent. Oops! Perhaps not forcing or shaming/guilt-tripping people into hiding themselves in changing stalls would be the moral thing to do and those who are offended can close their eyes or look elsewhere. I'd be cool if those stalls were entirely optional. I'm ambivalent about gendering or ungendering changing/shower rooms and WC's, but the user group of the space have to agree on a convention, hopefully one that doesn't double-down on another form of social bullshit while only addressing (no half-pun intended) one dimension.

pploug|3 months ago

> the prevailing trends in locker-room design is privacy, a way to make “a diverse user base” feel comfortable.

One thing that annoys me about this article is the subtle stab at woke / gender identity as a reason for this change. Both Germany and Sweden has a much higher percentage of transgender people compared to the US, and neither have these kinds of locker rooms.

Living in Germany where all-gender nude changing rooms, nude all-gender saunas and nude beaches are very normal and very much not sexualised, it is striking how different the underlying culture is here - Germans find nudity practical and sanitary, and at the same time they very much insist that you wear special bathing shoes.

bublyboi|3 months ago

In Seattle I believe this is being done to make it less controversial about which locker room trans people use… there’s one.

patja|3 months ago

Anyone know which Seattle gym the author visited with an all-gender locker room?

canucker2016|3 months ago

The article mentions "university gym" - a quick web search with the name of the largest university in Seattle, University of Washington, reveals:

https://www.washington.edu/ima/locker-rooms-and-pool-nominat...

  "The University of Washington’s Intramural Activities Building (IMA) underwent a comprehensive renovation to modernize its locker rooms and swimming pool, untouched since its 1966 construction. Utilizing a progressive design-build process, the project doubled the swimmable area and created one of the nation’s largest gender-inclusive locker facilities. The collaborative effort prioritized equity, accessibility, and universal design principles, resulting in three fully accessible, gender-inclusive locker rooms."

constantcrying|3 months ago

[deleted]

microtherion|3 months ago

In many European countries, it's not at all controversial to have nude mixed-gender saunas (and concerns about homosexuals recede once it's possible to be ogled heterosexually in such spaces).

Balinares|3 months ago

German saunas are nude and all-genders and no one minds. So please kindly don't blame the prudes' harmfulness on queers. We can handle our and each other's naked bodies fine, thank you.

sonofhans|3 months ago

This is such a modern, Puritanical take on nudity. Casual nudity exists everywhere in the world except where it is explicitly repressed. The relationship between sex and nudity is strengthened by prohibitions against nudity.

okayjustonemore|3 months ago

It’s just so wildly vainglorious and egocentric to think that you WILL be the object of sexual interest of other people in any given situation.

Besides, if this is how you think about yourself and the world around you, then you really have nothing to worry about on the “people finding you attractive in any way” front.

zapzupnz|3 months ago

> Nobody wants to change in a locker where they might be stared at as objects of sexual interest. I would not want to be nude in a changing room with homosexual men or women.

That sounds like a you problem.

Plenty of people around the world getting in the nuddy just fine, not thinking about such thing, not nearly as repressed as your post or tone.

embedding-shape|3 months ago

> I would not want to be nude in a changing room with homosexual men or women.

The worst part for you is that whenever you are in public, anyone can look at you with sexual interest at any moment, because humans are humans. It might be a better idea to focus on what makes you so uncomfortable with this nudity and sex thing, instead on focusing on what other people are doing as you cannot control their thoughts and feelings.

perfmode|3 months ago

Mixed nude saunas and resorts are normal in the Netherlands. I got used to it after a few hours.

xg15|3 months ago

The Stonewall riots were in 1969. At the latest since then, queer movements as political and cultural forces are a thing.

If locker room prudeness was an effect of that, it had a lag of half a century.

neuralRiot|3 months ago

I think sexuality is a too complex issue to get a consensus in a handful of posts, but to me no amount of regulation, if you want, can modify personal perception, you can take places where burkas are law as an example. If you feel sexualized (we all are at some point) in a locker room you will do so in any space with extrangers. This I believe is a result of the loss of social interaction of our times.

mcphage|3 months ago

> As soon as there are homosexuals or people who want to be perceived as the opposite gender involved

They've always been here, they've always been involved.

mrtesthah|3 months ago

Europe has no problem with mixed gender nudity in many similar situations, especially communal bathing. For example, nude beaches, saunas, the century-old German FKK movement, etc. Don’t project your own hangups onto the rest of the world.

mjmsmith|3 months ago

Where did gay men get changed before the new social norms?

TimorousBestie|3 months ago

> As soon as there are homosexuals or people who want to be perceived as the opposite gender involved, the social contract which made casual nudity work ceased to function.

Doesn’t make sense. The Weimar republic is an obvious counterexample.

guywithahat|3 months ago

It's really frustrating. So many women are getting abused in dorms now and nobody can talk about it; a friend of mine complained that a man was hanging out in the women's bathroom for hours on end on friday/saturday nights and the RA threatened to write her up. Rape/abuse rates are around 300x higher (depending on the numbers you use) for trans/non-binary people than women yet nobody cares, and just trying to do high-quality research on the subject can get tenured professors fired. It's frustrating because it's this enormous problem and we can't even have good research on the topic done, let alone address the crime numbers which have come out we can all see.

sp527|3 months ago

Maybe most men don't want to see other men naked? Does this have to be any more complicated than that? It always struck me as really weird tbh.

saulpw|3 months ago

Then don't look? We're all monkeys who are naked under all these clothes. Just focus on yourself and do your business and maybe do a little personal work if you're traumatized by exposed body parts.

foogazi|3 months ago

Yes, pass on seeing or being seen

rc5150|3 months ago

I'd like to be the first one to add a comment in agreement.

Having had a high number of uncomfortable experiences in nude-allowed locker rooms, it's nice to know there are spots where I don't need to be subjected to it if I prefer not to.

embedding-shape|3 months ago

> Maybe most men don't want to see other men naked?

Don't look then? No one is forcing you to look anywhere else than what you're doing. It always struck me as strange that people seem disgusted/disturbed/annoyed by something yet they're unable to look away and focus on their own business instead.

garyfirestorm|3 months ago

As a foreign national living in US. It amazes me that public urination could land you in jail (specifically indecent exposure) however being naked in a locker room is supposed to be considered normal.

add-sub-mul-div|3 months ago

One space is public and one is private. One space is optional/avoidable and one isn't. How could this be easier to understand?

baal80spam|3 months ago

How is this even comparable?