The performance on this machine is similar to the Snapdragon 8cx from Microsoft’s first big Windows on ARM push a few years ago (so nowhere near even the 4 year old Apple M1) while the idle power draw is similar to an x86 computer. If they’re not targeting either performance or power efficiency, I’m not sure who would be interested in this computer. I’d say that if you can tolerate Mac OS X for your use case, a used Mac Mini would be a far better choice.
The one niche they could hit I think is Arm devs who need an Arm machine, want to run Linux (and not rely on Asahi, which still only runs on M1/M2), and want some hardware expansion (PCIe, M.2, dual 10 GbE, etc.).
That's a lot smaller than the general homelab niche, or those who want a small, efficient, quiet computer for some purpose.
As I mentioned in the post, the M4 mini is only $50-100 more (though RAM upgrades quickly negate the price comparison past the base model), and it's many times more efficient—and powerful.
And while you can't do everything with Thunderbolt... there are some halfway-decent external PCIe docks you can use with some devices on macOS now.
If you can't tolerate macOS, you can get a used M1/M2 which will run Linux really well.
That's a challenge this machine has, it has to compete with things like a used 64GB M1 Max Mac Studio for $900 when the equivalent config is $700. The M1 Max would be wildly faster in everything.
I consider myself relatively adventurous with ARM SBCs, but I don't see the draw for this box. $500 for the 32GB of RAM version is a lot to ask, especially with no path to upgrade the RAM and coming from a company known to have mediocre quality control and difficult warranty support.
I always appreciate Jeff Geerling's willingness to do in-depth reviews and comparisons. In this case I would have liked to see a cheap x86-64 option in the ranks, though. I understand that it's supposed to be about ARM and low power, but with this box drawing 17W at idle and coming with a $500 price tag for 32GB RAM and no storage, we might as well start comparing to x86 options in the same price and power envelope.
I got a defective MS-01 and the return process was smooth and they paid for everything. I got a full refund even after the Amazon refund window expired.
I have a MS-A1 and a MS-A2 now and both have been serving massive web traffic for the past 8 months with 0 issues.
I think minisforum products are generally decent, but there are things that give me pauses.
I had a mini PC that would sometimes briefly show black screens followed by "AMD driver timeout" issues. I emailed their support, who instructed me to play with a few BIOS settings (slightly weird), and eventually asked me to start a warranty replacement. The emails were not tracked by any ticket system, just as regular emails, and the shipping address was a residential address in California. All of this feels slightly unprofessional, and the residential address thing is almost alarming. But in the end, the issue got addressed, so whatever.
The overall service definitely cannot possibly match Intel with their NUCs or Apple products, not a surprise. But the actual machines are ok.
If your mini PC died within warranty period, I don't see why you cannot do warranty returns. Otherwise, you just had bad luck, just like what could happen with many other devices from other manufacturers.
I can't speak for the Intel ones but I hear the AMD Zen 4 and later ones have been solid. I have a UM780 XTX that I've been using in a homelab setup and it's been rock solid. Zero issues with Linux (Arch btw), zero hardware issues after nearly 2 years of 24x7 operation.
These Chinese mini PCs are generally quite unreliable.
I have one Minisforum that had the HDMI glitch out periodically and another that would reboot on high MEM load. And the stock SSD died without any warning.
I relegated them to a NAS role and at low loads they’re ok.
Yeah I don't mind a ~250ish gamble on aliexpress but 500+ minipcs is above my risk tolerance. At that level I'd rather DIY a desktop sized build where I can troubleshoot individual components
I really like Minisforum in general and the current generation of AMD-powered Mini PCs. I have one as a media PC and I replaced my dad's desktop with one. They are cheap, fast and silent.
I was thinking of getting a high end AMD one as a replacement for my daughter's aging gaming PC, although as of this week I am thinking of waiting for Steam Machine.
This ARM machine seems a bit slow (I would have suggested a new Qualcomm CPU, some of them are crazy fast) but it is nice to see a major Mini PC manufacturer getting into the ARM space.
Having bought other systems in the MS-line, these boxes are heavy on cool homelab specs but aren't all that reliable and dealing with Minisforum for support is abysmal. I ended up moving back to old enterprise hardware (TinyMiniMicro or rackmounted gear). I don't recommend purchasing these systems if you're looking for anything more than a novelty; they're not any better than buying one of the random AliExpress mini PCs.
I still bought my 795s7 (a cheap 16-core MoDT (mobile on desktop) zen4 box) anyways, but accepting that I would probably never get bios updates ever was a hard pill to swallow. I haven't had to deal with support for anything defective, but support as in available bios updates being so so so spotty is really unfortunate.
AMD is talking about replacing closed AGESA BIOS with open OpenSIL bios some day, and maybe perhaps possibly it means end users get some chance to maintain & upgrade bios themselves, eventually, possibly. Given how some vendors seem uninterested in doing the work themselves, this sliver of a hope would be nice to see happen.
It would be great to have a full Snapdragon X Elite-based box, with working Wi-Fi drivers.
That said, it feels as if the fragmentation in the non-Windows space ends up being worse for non-Intel/AMD platforms, both commercially and from a devrel perspective. Qualcomm and Apple still have the best arm64 platforms above a Raspberry Pi.
This was my experience looking for an ARM Linux machine. The Apple M-series processors were so far ahead of anything else currently available on the market for the price. And the Ampere stuff is in an Epyc class of price with not an Epyc class of performance.
I think that is a result of this being their first entry into the ARM market. IT takes a while to get all the hardware and drivers in sync. Hopefully they don't give up and also upgrade to a better CPU.
There has got to be some firmware bugs causing high power usage, but also the CIX CPU is fabbed on TSMC 6 nm process which is a couple generations old.
I bought an MS-01 (the earlier Intel version of this) for homelab use and I don't know what was wrong with it, but Debian just refused to reboot on it. It would boot, but not reboot, freezing up every time.
I replaced it with an Asus NUC, which came with a non-functional BIOS, but was eventually coerced into working after forcibly flashing it.
That power usage is abysmal. I can’t see that it states how the draw was measured, but on a mini my average usage is 6.4w over a month, and that includes all usage. I moved from a nuc 9 which was using about 70w.
I don't like the word "homelab". Some people have a lab at home (computing, optics, chemistry, wherever) - that's fine. But this is just... a computer.
ndiddy|3 months ago
geerlingguy|3 months ago
That's a lot smaller than the general homelab niche, or those who want a small, efficient, quiet computer for some purpose.
As I mentioned in the post, the M4 mini is only $50-100 more (though RAM upgrades quickly negate the price comparison past the base model), and it's many times more efficient—and powerful.
And while you can't do everything with Thunderbolt... there are some halfway-decent external PCIe docks you can use with some devices on macOS now.
dwood_dev|3 months ago
That's a challenge this machine has, it has to compete with things like a used 64GB M1 Max Mac Studio for $900 when the equivalent config is $700. The M1 Max would be wildly faster in everything.
NewJazz|3 months ago
sidewndr46|3 months ago
Aurornis|3 months ago
I always appreciate Jeff Geerling's willingness to do in-depth reviews and comparisons. In this case I would have liked to see a cheap x86-64 option in the ranks, though. I understand that it's supposed to be about ARM and low power, but with this box drawing 17W at idle and coming with a $500 price tag for 32GB RAM and no storage, we might as well start comparing to x86 options in the same price and power envelope.
mcny|3 months ago
Please do not buy a minisforum.
And it wasn't just me. https://old.reddit.com/r/MiniPCs/comments/1ocvjby/minisforum...
m00x|3 months ago
I have a MS-A1 and a MS-A2 now and both have been serving massive web traffic for the past 8 months with 0 issues.
g947o|3 months ago
I had a mini PC that would sometimes briefly show black screens followed by "AMD driver timeout" issues. I emailed their support, who instructed me to play with a few BIOS settings (slightly weird), and eventually asked me to start a warranty replacement. The emails were not tracked by any ticket system, just as regular emails, and the shipping address was a residential address in California. All of this feels slightly unprofessional, and the residential address thing is almost alarming. But in the end, the issue got addressed, so whatever.
The overall service definitely cannot possibly match Intel with their NUCs or Apple products, not a surprise. But the actual machines are ok.
If your mini PC died within warranty period, I don't see why you cannot do warranty returns. Otherwise, you just had bad luck, just like what could happen with many other devices from other manufacturers.
d3Xt3r|3 months ago
bhouston|3 months ago
vachina|3 months ago
I have one Minisforum that had the HDMI glitch out periodically and another that would reboot on high MEM load. And the stock SSD died without any warning.
I relegated them to a NAS role and at low loads they’re ok.
Havoc|3 months ago
cout|3 months ago
bhouston|3 months ago
I was thinking of getting a high end AMD one as a replacement for my daughter's aging gaming PC, although as of this week I am thinking of waiting for Steam Machine.
This ARM machine seems a bit slow (I would have suggested a new Qualcomm CPU, some of them are crazy fast) but it is nice to see a major Mini PC manufacturer getting into the ARM space.
futuraperdita|3 months ago
jauntywundrkind|3 months ago
AMD is talking about replacing closed AGESA BIOS with open OpenSIL bios some day, and maybe perhaps possibly it means end users get some chance to maintain & upgrade bios themselves, eventually, possibly. Given how some vendors seem uninterested in doing the work themselves, this sliver of a hope would be nice to see happen.
daviddever23box|3 months ago
That said, it feels as if the fragmentation in the non-Windows space ends up being worse for non-Intel/AMD platforms, both commercially and from a devrel perspective. Qualcomm and Apple still have the best arm64 platforms above a Raspberry Pi.
arjie|3 months ago
mperham|3 months ago
SG-|3 months ago
bhouston|3 months ago
porphyra|3 months ago
znpy|3 months ago
LeoPanthera|3 months ago
I replaced it with an Asus NUC, which came with a non-functional BIOS, but was eventually coerced into working after forcibly flashing it.
I haven't had a lot of luck with mini PCs.
midtake|3 months ago
wmf|3 months ago
lostlogin|3 months ago
immibis|3 months ago