[retube]

As a parent, I relate to all this. Great piece.

When the kids were babies we had the standard debate of move to the countryside for fresh air and gambolling in the fields etc. But so glad we stayed in London, the kids have so much freedom with public transport they can organise their own meet ups and activities and go running around all over town without any parental assistance or intervention at all. Whereas elsewhere we'd need to drive them everywhere, they'd be stuck at home way more, they'd have no real agency in their lives - I grew up like that and hated it.

[reeredfdfdf]

There's a middle-ground between a big city and full countryside.

I lived my childhood in a place with about 4000 people in it. School, friends and everything else I needed was within walking, or at least biking distance. My parents didn't have to drive me everywhere. Obviously there weren't as many possible hobbies and events as in big cities, but mobility wasn't an issue.

[wongarsu]

Smaller cities with about 40k-200k inhabitants can also be a nice sweet spot: big enough to have a decent number of events and hobby opportunities, small enough that you have low-traffic sidestreets within walking distance of the city center, and nature is still very much in reach

Assuming a European city layout where a city center exists and the 200k inhabitants aren't all spread out into suburban sprawl. Suburbia quickly kills the idea of walking and biking distances

[rayiner]

Right. Most people in "rural" places live in small towns. My wife went to high school in a rural Iowa town with 2,000 people. You can walk from the high school to anywhere in town in 30 minutes.

[qweiopqweiop]

Likewise. All my friends were within cycling distance and we had nature to play in. Personally I can't imagine growing up in a city like London.

[dukeyukey]

You're more thinking suburban, or super rural. I grew up in a rural Welsh town (~3000 people), and was is walking distance of basically everyone we knew. I walked to school, to the pool, to the shops, my friends, everything.

[Cthulhu_]

Same, somewhat bigger town but it had everything within walking or cycling distance, it was only when I was 17 or so that I had to cycle to the next town over for school. But small towns are emptying out too, a lot of aging, elementary schools are merging and closing, local shops and amenities are closing down. The town used to have a bank, post office and police station, but banking and mailing changed to the point where it was no longer viable to have those services in town.

[startupsfail]

When I was growing up 90-ies, a mix of using public metro and buses to roam the city (since I was in second grade, when I was allowed to take metro to do afterschool karate) and spending summers in various countryside locations where my grandparents resided was a good mix.

I disagree that the kids need or want to roam without grownups all the time. Grownups are not the problem. Kids are fun for the parents, the company of parents and their peers is kinda amazing.

Systems and institutions are the problem. When kids are stuck in the daycare or school, in a very limited space, grownups are stuck at the office and grandparents are in a different state for tax purposes - that is the problem.

I don't know if this is true, but Patagonia claimed at some point that they used to maintain daycares and allow kids to roam the campus...

[lanfeust6]

Rural in Wales is not like rural in most of North America.

[vanderZwan]

The other comments already pointed out that there is plenty to do for kids growing up in villages - it's not until they're teenagers that it becomes limiting, really (speaking from personal experience and what I was told by friends who also grew up in the countryside).

Funny that you're talking about having to drive them everywhere though, because the main worry I have as a parent is the impact of car traffic on child safety.

I grew up in a Dutch village of 1500 people, and my parents let me wander about from when I was five, six years old or so. If I still lived there I would feel completely comfortable with giving my child the same freedom (once she's old enough - she's only a toddler now).

The main reason for that is that there is only one road that goes through village. Everything else is a street (see the wiki page on "stroads" for a clarification about the distinction [0]). And anyone driving through the village knows there might be kids playing there.

Contrast that with where I currently live: in apartment block in a city that is right next to a crossing of two stroads. We actually have very nice parks and playgrounds within walking distance. But to get here we have to cross at least one road or stroad. The thought of letting a six year old do that by herself scares me.

On a rational level I'm aware that this is probably my sheltered upbringing and that she will understand the dangers of car traffic better than I did at the age of six because she's growing up in a city, but I can't help but worry that she'll underestimate it until she's a bit older - a voice in my goes "it doesn't matter how often she does do it right, she only has to absentmindedly cross the road and get herself run over once."

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroad

[dgacmu]

I dunno - I have a seven year old whom I try to allow to be as feral as possible. We let him go alone to the neighborhood park, which requires seven small residential street crossings. But I would hesitate also about a multi-lane stroad if there wasn't a lot of pedestrian traffic. Kids are small and cars have gotten huge and drivers are very distracted, especially post-pandemic.

(We're in the US, and I draw the line at letting him cross ordinary 25mph residential streets but not the "25mph" artery road on which many of the drivers go 40mph. It's only one lane in each direction but there are no lights or crossings and the effective speed is quite high.)

[canucker2016]

My parents like to tell the story about me getting bored at kindergarten class one day.

I grew up in a residential area in a city of several million people.

The teachers had let the kids out for recess. But even that amount of playful distraction didn't diminish my boredom that day.

So I went home.

In the middle of the school day.

Without the teacher finding out...

I had to cross a stroad to get home - two lanes each way. I can't recall if I crossed at the street light or at a crosswalk a few blocks away. But I made my way home unscathed. My mom was surprised when I showed up at home a few hours early.

The next few days at school, I could feel the teacher's eyes boring into my back as I played during recess. Definitely felt like I was being watched for awhile. :)

[lotsofpulp]

>On a rational level I'm aware that this is probably my sheltered upbringing and that she will understand the dangers of car traffic better than I did

She can understand it all she wants, it won’t make a difference to a driver who is texting in a huge suv/pickup truck with a hood twice your daughter’s height.

It is objectively more dangerous to be a pedestrian/bicyclist/even a person in a smaller car than in previous decades.

And if it’s dark or raining outside, forget about it. Crossing a 50ft wide road with a 40mph speed limit (which means people are actually distracted driving at 50mph) as a kid is daunting.

A 50ft wide road is just 5 lanes, 2 in each direction, and 1 turning lane. Very common in the US, even in small communities.

[madaxe_again]

I relate to this as the parent I am and the kid I was.

I went to boarding school in the 80’s and 90’s. There were houses, there was the school, the masters, the usual abuses - but there were also the gangs. They’d all have a name along the lines of “The Orcs” or “The Goonies”, and a clubhouse built of scrap and brush somewhere in the woodland attached to the school, usually accessible only by crawling through tunnels of brambles and a hidden trapdoor, and knowing where the tripwires and murderous sash weights were concealed. Most would have a few dozen boys in them, spread over the five years of the school. Younger boys would be skivvies, diggers, and by the time you were 12 you’d be a war chief, and organising and leading raids against other camps. Old pool cover was a particularly sought after commodity during raids - not only did it keep the rain out, but it kept the place warm in the winters.

Outside of term I’d go and saunter around abandoned factories and rail yards near our home.

Anyway. I think they cut the woodland down decades ago to replace it with more playing fields.

That thing, however - that little, tribal community of kids - is very much live and kicking, but non the west, very much no longer in the physical world.

My kid is being raised in a forest - and I’m acutely aware that sooner rather than later she is going to need a gang.

[gyomu]

Wait, how old are your kids, that they gallivant around London on their own? Are we talking about teenagers?

Because yeah, I agree with you that in that sense cities are better than the often car-centric countryside for teenagers; but for young kids (elementary school and below, which is what the article covers) it's a very different equation.

[PaulRobinson]

Not really. I live in Zone 4/5 West London (postcode TW area), and kids as young as I'd say around 9 or 10 are getting themselves to school on buses, trains and tubes every day. Not much different to my day - I was taking myself to school around 7/8 years old living in a small (10k pop.) semi-rural town.

After school they're getting themselves home as well, often in groups causing the traditional nuisance in newsagents and supermarkets (thank god the energy drinks are now not sold to kids!), and going to parks and whatever.

I think they have to be a little older to confidently get their way into Zone 1 on their own if they should need to, but I regularly see youngsters I'd guess are 11-12 years old going into town on their own, clearly to meet friends.

Despite what the media (and for crying out loud, the US President), says, London is actually a remarkably safe city. Murder/homicides are at a low they haven't been at for decades (possibly centuries), and while sexual assaults are rising, that is seen as mostly attributable to more reporting (victims coming forward more). In the case of assault on a child, that's more likely to occur in a family setting than it is in a public place during daylight hours.

[jddj]

Why? Plenty of elementary aged kids use the tube

[paxiongmap]

I have just done the opposite - left London for the countryside and am currently very much enjoying it. As our toddler gets older it will interesting to see how we deal with the challenges of letting them find their own space.

[iso1631]

There's two aspect of "country" relative to somewhere like London. There's an estate in various towns, where there's plenty of actual public space, playing fields and grounds, walk into town, to shops, bus/train to larger towns. Plenty of open space.

Then there's the real country, where there's very little public space - nowhere to ride a bike other than narrow country roads, you can walk but only in restrictive footpaths over fields - some of which are sabotaged by farmers (I file 2 or 3 complaints with the right-of-way office each year as footpaths get blocked, barbed wire put over stiles, etc). We have an open forest area, but it's a 2 mile walk.

There are 4 children in our village at the "local" primary school, across the 7 years. My youngest's nearest friend is 6 miles away - again via 60mph roads. That means having to be driven to places. There is a school bus (which for americans reading is relatively rare in the UK -- you get one upto age 11 if you live more than 2 miles from the nearest school, or 3 miles for 11-16), but that doesn't help for after school clubs.

A toddler isn't going to be independent with travel, so driving them places is fine. In a few years though, you want them to be able to travel and meet friends, go to the shop etc, independently. That's easy enough in a city or in a town, not in the country.

That said, just having that access doesn't mean they will use it. My 13 year old's main social interaction is via minecraft sessions where they have a group call and yell at each other, doesn't matter if someone lives nearby (which one of the group does), or 30 miles away (which another does).

(It's worth highlighting that UK suburbia is very different to US suburbia)

[ErigmolCt]

Cities feel riskier, but in many ways they offer more room to grow. Kids don't just need nature; they need space to navigate the world on their own terms

[mlrtime]

I'm going to get criticism because I feel HN is mostly urban based... but I don't think kids need "cities" to grow. They need nature.

I picture rural/suburban areas that aren't fully built out with small wooded areas , creeks and playground 5-10 minute walk. They need to get dirty, play in water etc.

When I think cities, I think dense urban areas that rarely offer this unless living in a expensive or unique neighborhood (like within 1-2 blocks of Central Park or Prospect Park).

[abbadadda]

Curious what age you started letting them ride the tube on their own? I’m in London as well and we’re starting to have the “walk to school” conversation but it is still early days and a 15 minute jaunt so not nothing.

[retube]

for travel to school was 10, but was direct no changes and only a short walk the other end. then for social etc from around 12, by 13 travelling all over london on trains, buses, tubes, albeit always with friends, then alone probably 14

[ensocode]

I can relate. Nice article. We had that same debate and ended up moving to the countryside. Surprisingly, it worked out well. + real forests. With today’s e-bikes, even hills or longer distances aren’t really a blocker for kids anymore. In the end, it feels like the bigger factor is how you organize daily life, not whether you’re in a city or in a rural area.

[netdevphoenix]

>With today’s e-bikes, even hills or longer distances aren’t really a blocker for kids anymore

Unlike public transport, with an e-bike, the chances of getting a puncture or a malfunctioning battery increase with usage. Plus, there is also the very common bike theft and road accidents if you live in a country where bikes need to go on the road (like the UK)

[jimbob45]

Whitewashing motorcycles as e-bikes scares me more than anything else for the next generation.

[schnitzelstoat]

I grew up in a town outside of London (100k pop.) and it was pretty decent as I could walk pretty much everywhere.

I live in a massive city now (1.5m pop.) and I'd be nervous to let my kids walk around alone because there's quite a lot of crime.

I feel a town is probably the sweet spot.

[bamboozled]

We live in the mountains , our kids ski all the time , lots to do in the summer, can bike and walk everywhere, not sure what you’re on about?

[carlosjobim]

Didn't you have a bicycle?

[m463]

This sounds really different from present-day America where helicoptering seems to be the new default. sigh.

I grew up with something different - "go out and play", coming back for dinner.