top | item 45989469

PHP 8.5

244 points| brentroose | 3 months ago |stitcher.io

190 comments

order

inovica|3 months ago

I still love PHP. 23 years ago we created some encryption software for it and it is still going. I also run a PHP newsletter. There's still a strong community of people and whilst there are other languages which I also use (Python, Node.js) I still find myself gravitating towards PHP for fast and simple work

The only issues I have. is that this is a 'double edged sword' in that PHP has become far more complex since the launch of PHP 5 and so it isn't as easy to understand from scratch as it used to be

LexiMax|3 months ago

PHP is a perfect example of how to undergo major transitions correctly.

In the time that it took Python to go from Python 2 to 3, PHP underwent 5.2 -> 5.3 and 5.6 -> 7.0. 5.3 changed how you write PHP in a fundamental way by introducing namespaces and PSR0 autoloading. Then, 5.6 -> 7.0 cleaned up the parser, resulting in massive speed improvements.

They did this by not breaking the universe in these major updates...or really, any of there updates. Each update would break a few specific things, warn you about a few other things that were going to break in the near future, while giving you ways to shim the old behavior if you _really_ needed it.

They also gave you ample carrots reasons to update - aside from what was already mentioned, my personal favorite update was PHP 5.4 because it introduced short array syntax, made UTF-8 the default charset, introduced traits, and finally put register globals and magic quotes out of their misery...but giving you a shim if you had some ancient project that needed it.

If you're wondering why PHP 6 was abandoned, it was because it was an update in the style of Python 3 by breaking strings everywhere. In retrospect, I think the decision to cancel 6 was the right one. Somehow, I doubt that PHP would've had the influx of data science and AI that saved Python 3.

Hats off to the project - I've long been off of the CGI-style web development narcotic, but the language put food on my table for quite some time, and the people steering the language treated their community well.

matula|3 months ago

I've seen a few other comments also talk about PHP becoming more complex. However, I have "simple" code built using 5.3 and it works perfectly fine in 8. So I guess it CAN be complex, but doesn't really need to be. The biggest changes I would make to that code are fixing the multiple 'switch' and 'if/else' blocks to an anonymous function or some mapping... but it's not required.

dijit|3 months ago

> 23 years ago we created some encryption software for it

ZEND?

I remember "nulling" software in the mid-00's and Zend was always a terrible ball-ache.

Which, if that was your project, is high praise. :)

johnisgood|3 months ago

I think PHP 8 is easy to understand if you write it from scratch, you just have to learn doing things the right way, read up on PSRs and so on. It is a bit more complex but much more secure and supports quite a lot of things now that are definitely helpful to have.

darkamaul|3 months ago

PHP's evolution since PHP 5 has been substantial, and I think this is a real problem. As someone who learned the language years ago, the pace of change (generics, attributes, match expressions, typed properties) makes modern codebases genuinely difficult to follow.

I suspect this affects many developers who cut their teeth on PHP but haven't kept up. The language has become a different beast, which is a strength for the community but a barrier to re-entry.

gramakri2|3 months ago

IMO, newer PHP is still very readable. I programmed with C++ for a decade, but I can safely say that I cannot understand a modern C++ code base anymore.

johnisgood|3 months ago

I think PHP is way better now than it used to be. Learn PHP 8 and you are good to go.

segmondy|3 months ago

It's a real problem with almost all software today, nothing ever gets done. they just keep piling unto it no matter how great it was. the idea of simplicity as a goal and feature is lost on this generation.

danaris|3 months ago

I dunno; I started with PHP 5 (actually, I think I started in late PHP 4), and I've only been happy with the changes as it's evolved.

The only one that's caused me any significant stress is the deprecation of the old `mysql` DB interface; I had to refactor a whole bunch of code for that, since I'm maintaining a codebase that's been in continuous use & development since 2001.

The additions to PHP since 5 add more things you can do, but they don't really change the simple things you can do to first learn PHP. You can still just create a .php file and start interspersing HTML and <?php script tags with basic operations.

woodrowbarlow|3 months ago

but would you even be considering re-entry if it hadn't improved dramatically?

jm4|3 months ago

To be fair, that’s true of many languages and programming domains. The web, in particular, is one where you have to keep pace or end up out of the field.

Java and C# are a couple other popular languages where the same is also true.

ivolimmen|3 months ago

Most likely this can be said about a lot of languages, most languages are being maintained and improved. I am an hired expert in Java and I needed to explain some new languages features to some colleagues that have been introduced recently, I only mention them if they actually improve readability though. I think PHP might be slightly different than other languages as a huge amount of people use this to create their first website as a hobby.

pjmlp|3 months ago

This is true for most languages though, compare C# 14 with C# 1.0, Java 25 with Java 1.0, C 23 (plus common compiler extensions) with K&R C,....

Capricorn2481|3 months ago

I work on projects from PHP 5.6-8.4 and I can't say it feels that different. It's mostly just type differences.

But PHP 5 was released 21 years ago and is unsupported. Companies using it are putting their customers at risk.

_DeadFred_|3 months ago

I used laracasts.com plus AI code assistants to bring myself back up to speed pretty quickly.

tehbeard|3 months ago

You can still write php 5-esque slop and have it run... mostly (some particulars like the half dozen ways of interpolating a variable into a string have been paired down, some extensions left in the dustbin, but the fundamental "shit out a script and run it" capability still remains doable).

non of the "modern" things are particularly taxing to teach someone with more than two braincells. If they don't understand them then they haven't kept up with ANY programming trends in the past decade and are best placed infront of the TV with an iPad than left to mess with the possible critical infrastructure of a business.

phplovesong|3 months ago

PHP has no generics? I read somewhere that is was "too hard" to get right in PHP land, mostly because of how primitive the typesystem is.

calpaterson|3 months ago

A lot of people are too proud to be associated with PHP. I am ready to admit that know nothing about the language except that a lot of people make cool things with it.

My favourite PHP product at the moment is BookStack (https://www.bookstackapp.com/), a really good wiki. I run an instance for my family and it's great.

But there are loads of things. And I notice that many of the sites I like using...are built on well maintained PHP stacks.

jjice|3 months ago

Modern PHP is a damn fine, fast language. I wrote production PHP from 2021 to 2023. The problem with PHP wasn't the language or the ecosystem (PHP community packages are very solid in my experience), it's the existing PHP code you'll work with and the people that hire for PHP.

My salary literally doubled within two years of getting a gig that wasn't PHP. If you see a listing for PHP dev work, there's a good chance it's notably lower salary. There are still solid gigs for it, but I swear they lean lower.

The other problem is the existing codebases. There is some awful legacy PHP 4 era code. There are also a lot of practices that old PHP had that are just awful to work with, and there's a bit of variety in there. So many bad data access patterns out there. Many of old PHP codebases have their own spin on that kind of thing.

I understand this isn't actually due to the language, but there is a real correlation (in my experience) between old bad code and it being in PHP. Which is totally fair because it was a good tool to reach for to "get shit done (r)" and that code was successful enough to have to continue to live.

Modern PHP has, thanks to the core language and the big frameworks, made it wonderful. I lead a big push to go from PHP 5.8 to PHP 8.1 at the time at my last company. It was wonderful. The quality of the code we were enabled to write was huge.

If I was starting a new project today, I probably wouldn't reach for PHP, but I'd gladly join in on a modern (last ten years) Laravel project.

nusl|3 months ago

PHP is a very pleasant and straight-forward language to work with. I enjoyed my time working with it, though I did also see quite a lot of very poor code.

I think the danger with PHP is more its ability to easily cause *very bad things*.

This would partially be poor training (my University literally taught PHP with SQL-injectable examples), and I think the language itself making it very easy, such that less-experienced developers using it - most of them, early on - don't realise what's wrong until it's gone wrong.

With PHP being such an early tool online, and the above properties existing, it earned a reputation for being insecure and bad.

rob74|3 months ago

I'd take PHP instead of JS/TS + framework-of-the-day on the backend anytime. Ok, PHP is usually also paired with a framework (cough Laravel cough), but at least there the situation is more stable, not to mention more mature. Unfortunately, I'm not the only one making the decisions...

etothet|3 months ago

I’ve made my living amd career off of PHP and I enjoy its modernization.

Coding in PHP can be a lot like playing the guitar or writing poetry: many people can do it, but it’s easy to do very badly.

nake89|3 months ago

> A lot of people are too proud to be associated with PHP.

How so?

bawolff|3 months ago

> My favourite PHP product at the moment is BookStack (https://www.bookstackapp.com/), a really good wiki.

Another wiki that uses php is Wikipedia.

People like to shit on php but it powers some of the largest sites in the world.

At the end of the day, programming language doesn't matter much. You can be a good programmer in any language and a bad programmer in any language.

dalemhurley|3 months ago

The most exciting thing about the PHP8.5 announcement is the stability and maturity of PHP

f311a|3 months ago

PHP becomes a complex language with each update. For what reason? Its application is still limited to the web, mostly.

mhd|3 months ago

A lot of C# and Java code is oriented towards web backends, too. Which are quite big and complex. So it seems natural that languages in the same design space (trad OO) converge on similar features. I think the only exception these days is Go.

I think these days you could change "You can write Fortran in any language" to "You can structure your code like Spring in any language"…

Xenoamorphous|3 months ago

The web is not getting any simpler.

nunodonato|3 months ago

Obviously you haven't heard of NativePhp :)

Still, even if it was "just" the web, why wouldn't it evolve? It's a great language, with a big user base, and there's always room for improvements and to increase the developer experience

dotancohen|3 months ago

I downvoted you before reading the fine article. I'm back to correct that.

The new array_first() and array_last() functions are nice, everything else is either reimplantation of existing features or "features"which will make maintainability more difficult. The pipe operator is one such example. I don't need it - these nested methods are not really an issue in any codebase I've seen. The new syntax only works for unary functions, so higher arity functions must be wrapped in an arrow function. It's a mess and more bug prone than just nesting the functions.

theoldgreybeard|3 months ago

Can’t believe we’re getting array_first, array_last and fatal error stack traces in PHP before GTA6.

neor|3 months ago

Nice additions, but haven't really missed them a lot.

Most of the time if I want the first or last element I don't care about the array itself so array_shift and array_pop work just fine.

habibur|3 months ago

    Backticks as an alias for shell_exec() are deprecated
Used that a lot in shell scripts. using php-cli.

like in `mkdir $dirname`;

pabs3|3 months ago

That is an anti-pattern, since it suffers from shell meta-character injection (and argument injection). Since PHP has mkdir, you should use that instead. And pcntl_exec() is the correct API for running processes.

dgb23|3 months ago

The pipe operator example omits the typical way you would write this code in any language: simply by introducing temporary variables or by shadowing.

The url parse example is not being compared to the builtin parse_url function that is just as easy to use.

RobAley|3 months ago

Parse_url isn't standards compliant, often fails with relative url's and most importantly only parses urls, not uris (with the exception of file://). I also find it's syntax clunkier than the new uri(), but that's just personal preference.

The pipe operator is indeed just syntactical sugar (and the article links to another article specifically about it which does cover the case of temporary variables), but with the coming partial function application feature it (in my opinion) will make easier to read/reason chains of code than temporary variables or nested function calls.

idoubtit|3 months ago

Adding new functions and alternative syntax has a long-term cost for PHP and the projects that use the language. I don't see much value in the new features of PHP5 announced on https://www.php.net/releases/8.5/en.php

- URI extension: there was already the internal `parse_url()` which was imperfect, and alternative libraries that were RFC 3986 compliant. An official extension will bring speed, but now there will be 2 official ways to parse URLs.

- The pipe operator is a matter of taste. In the release notes, the new code is more verbose, because it defines anonymous functions. This alternative syntax means keeping a consistent code style will be harder.

- The update of "clone" replaces 2 lines of code in some cases. Unless I misunderstood, it's a very minor change.

- The #Discard/void will replace the similar feature from static analyzers.

- Closures in constants is one of the 2 features that bring more than an alternative syntax. It's one more little step toward a preprocessor. But I'm not thrilled about the future #attributes assigned with complex closures.

- cURL persistent handles are a real performance feature, because curl_init() is costly.

- array_first() is a minor syntax-sugar. In a project of 100k+ lines of PHP, I probably could use it twice or thrice. Was it worth a global function?

boxedemp|3 months ago

PHP has really come a long way since I used it in the 90s on my first little website.

phplovesong|3 months ago

PHP should REALLY focus on getting the core stuff in shape.

Its still so annoying that you have to use mb_real_uppercase($name) for unicode. The other gripe is that the stdlib is SO messy. With PHP 5.3 they had a once in a lifetime opportunity to cleanup the stdlib and introduce a new namespaced API for builtins, and optionally introduce a uniform function call syntax:

    "foo"->strtoupper();
Whenever doing PHP the time for concurrency will come sooner or later. Having no way of doing ANY concurrency is a letdown. The Fiber API does nothing on its own, and you are forced to use some third party runtime, that is usually a non-starter for legacy projects.

PHP has come a long way from the PHP 4.0 era, but is still lacking in multiple areas, and i dont see it being a pick for greenfield projects in 2025.

senfiaj|3 months ago

Yeah, the core ergonomics is significantly lagging behind most other backend languages despite improvements in some areas. I even wrote an article https://waspdev.com/articles/2025-06-12/my-honest-opinion-ab... .

As for concurrency/async, it's possible to do requests in parallel with curl_multi_*. Other async/prallel things are also possible, but tend to be more complicated compared to JS or other languages with promise and async support.

spiderfarmer|3 months ago

> i dont see it being a pick for greenfield projects in 2025

You don't see it because you're not looking. There are many Laravel jobs in my area. If you think that is only for Legacy projects, might be mistaken.

mg|3 months ago

When I look at the new pipe syntax ...

    $output = $input
        |> trim(...)
        |> (fn (string $string) => str_replace(' ', '-', $string))
        |> (fn (string $string) => str_replace(['.', '/', '…'], '', $string))
        |> strtolower(...);
... I think why not just something like the following?

    $output = $input
        |> trim($)
        |> str_replace(' ', '-', $)
        |> str_replace(['.', '/', '…'], '', $)
        |> strtolower($);

2WSSd-JzVM|3 months ago

That example in article is straight up terrible. The Java version would be:

  var input = "Some kind of string.";  
  var output = Optional.of(input)
    .map(i -> i.trim())
    .map(i -> i.replace(' ', '-'))
    .map(i -> i.replaceAll("[./…]", ""))
    .map(i -> i.toLowerCase())
    .get();
That is until you realize there is no reason to go weird with arrow operators when String is an object:

  var input = "Some kind of string.";        
  var output = input.trim()
    .replace(' ', '-')
    .replaceAll("[./…]", "")
    .toLowerCase();
It looks like they solved the wrong issue but that is probably just side effect of using trivial examples.

rafark|3 months ago

Your second option was rejected years ago I believe. The pipes were designed to work alongside this rfc that was supposed to be in this new version (8.5) but due to time constraints it had to be delayed and it’s currently being voted https://wiki.php.net/rfc/partial_function_application_v2

dzonga|3 months ago

if they was something to learn it was for the Ruby community to learn from the PHP community on how to reinvent itself.

PHP like Ruby had some big companies built on it - Facebook: PHP, Ruby: Github/Shopify

PHP was able to swallow Hack and become PHP8 - they optimized for getting beginners into the language / ecosystem

Ruby while a beautiful / friendly language and ecosystem - got into political wars - didn't optimize for beginners on windows etc

even as a person who favors Rails - Laravel is ahead -> on documentation & bringing various ways to do things into the framework. There's no stick with Hotwire. You wanna do livewire go ahead, we will help you. You wanna do Inertia + JS - go ahead we will help you.

ReptileMan|3 months ago

One of the things I have noticed in languages is that after some iterative evolution the piled on features and syntaxis sugar make them look bizarre and hard to read. Probably the weight of backwards compatibility and that the initial paradigms have picked up the easy to understand real estate. And there are no good ways of getting out of the corner you have coded yourself in.

Probably because compile/interpret is one way street. There is no way to lets say view/transform a part of the code in functional or imperative depending on what you need to do with it.

Reading modern php or even worse mixed generations code base feels like another full time job on top of the regular one - coding with it.

holoduke|3 months ago

Why is it that all these languages like PHP, but also typescript are becoming like impossible puzzles to read. I find these generics, types and other language features very often causing complex software architecture. I see so many collegues these days struggling in understanding codebases. You almost need a PHD brain to be a frontend web developer.

spartanatreyu|3 months ago

Counterpoint (from the same website): https://stitcher.io/blog/evolution-of-a-php-object

PHP 8.2 has this:

``` readonly class BlogData

{

    public function __construct(

        public string $title,

        public State $state,

        public ?DateTimeImmutable $publishedAt = null,

    ) {}
}

```

Whereas in php 5.6, to accomplish the same you need all this:

``` class BlogData { /* @var string / private $title;

    /** @var State */
    private $state;
    
    /** @var \DateTimeImmutable|null */
    private $publishedAt;
   
   /**
    * @param string $title 
    * @param State $state 
    * @param \DateTimeImmutable|null $publishedAt 
    */
    public function __construct(
        $title,
        $state,
        $publishedAt = null
    ) {
        $this->title = $title;
        $this->state = $state;
        $this->publishedAt = $publishedAt;
    }
    
    /**
     * @return string 
     */
    public function getTitle()
    {
        return $this->title;    
    }
    
    /**
     * @return State 
     */
    public function getState() 
    {
        return $this->state;    
    }
    
    /**
     * @return \DateTimeImmutable|null 
     */
    public function getPublishedAt() 
    {
        return $this->publishedAt;    
    }
} ```

onli|3 months ago

I assume it is some inferiority complex, on many sides. PHP itself was laughed at being too simple, underpowered and inconsistent, now they overcorrected with types, annotations and breaking backwards compatibility with every release so that no old code base can remain intact. Frontend devs yearned to be regarded as real developers, which in their context means construction of unwieldly and overcomplex enterprise bullshit, thus typescript etc. And in the backend you have that same mechanism, devs having to prove they are no beginners and thus using (wrongly) design patterns, instructed by software architects, instead of avoiding abstraction and thus complexity.

No, I'm not bitter.

niek_pas|3 months ago

Can you share an example of what you're talking about in PHP 8.5? On the linked web page, the only code pattern that looks remotely complicated to me is the following:

    #[SkipDiscovery(static function (Container $container): bool {
        return ! $container->get(Application::class) instanceof ConsoleApplication;
    })]
    final class BlogPostEventHandlers
    { /\* … \*/ }

squigz|3 months ago

It's somewhat comforting to read my insecurities shared by others in this thread

stefanfisk|3 months ago

Which parts of PHP have become harder to read?

kreco|3 months ago

Like on of my sibling comment, I truly believe this is connected to some degree of social pressure.

People pointing fingers to "outdated" languages for not having some of the most trendy constructs.

The pipe operator is definitely one of the feature that create more ways to do the same thing while providing unclear benefit.

Never in my life I was in a situation like "with the pipe operator this I would have saved me hours of debugging/reading/creating code".

yupyupyups|3 months ago

Is PHP still unhelpful when it comes to writing secure code?

I remember when escaping SQL input data was "the correct way" to use your mysql database. Parametrization? Nah, just use mysql_escape_string or whatever it was called.

Octoth0rpe|3 months ago

php has kept around a lot of functionality that can be misused, but PDO has had parameterization since forever and is the go to method if you want to connect to a database. Beyond that though, most PHP projects at this point are likely using a query builder/orm like eloquent.

So I guess it depends on what you mean by unhelpful. PHP as a language makes it pretty easy to do bad stuff. PHP as a community makes it easy to Do The Right Thing.

krapp|3 months ago

Prepared statements have been available in PHP for over 20 years, when it deprecated the old mysql libraries. They were removed entirely in PHP 7.

And let's be real - most handwritten SQL code in existence in most languages just builds queries from concatenated strings, even when more secure options exist. A lot of code doesn't even bother to escape anything. That's not a language problem so much as a developer laziness and assumption that "simplicity always equals correctness and frameworks are always wrong" problem.

amiga-workbench|3 months ago

You use PDO and prepared statements. Although realistically, you are going to be using a framework and some kind of Active Record pattern.

g105b|3 months ago

SQL named parameters was a feature introduced into PHP on 24th Nov 2005, with the release of PHP 5.1.0.

Ayesh|3 months ago

the MySQL extension was dropped in PHP 7.0.

nick-sta|3 months ago

Looking forward for true async to land - nothing here gets me too excited.

dr0verride|3 months ago

PHP is still an incredibly verbose and tedious language to work with. I'm glad that it's continuing to improve because I'm stuck with it everyday.

tguvot|3 months ago

still remember been on #php with count down to php3 announcement

dotancohen|3 months ago

I remember the discussions at the time about which filename extension to use - and I can not believe that .php3 won. I think that I was the first to bring up the subject for PHP 4, to use .php again and not include the version number.

nalekberov|3 months ago

Thanks PHP for bringing pipe operator in 2025.

icar|3 months ago

Do people have any recommendations for modern PHP tutorials and learning sources?

johnisgood|3 months ago

Yes, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39989663

---

Books:

* PHP & MySQL: Novice to Ninja by Tom Butler

* PHP 8 - Quick Scripting Reference by Mikael Olsson

* PHP 8 Objects, Patterns, and Practice by Matt Zandstra

* Programming PHP (2020) by Kevin Tatroe and Peter MacIntyre

I personally found them to be really good. I learned a lot from the first book especially.

You can find the code from the first book here: https://github.com/spbooks/phpmysql7

I hope this helps.

fbn79|3 months ago

arggg.... PHP introduce pipe operator before ecmascript. I want it in Javascript!

gregoriol|3 months ago

tl;dr: nothing interesting, just stability and maturity

Cthulhu_|3 months ago

And a pipe operator, which is also being discussed in a number of other languages.

nalekberov|3 months ago

[deleted]

mikedelfino|3 months ago

What do you mean developers should deal with functions like those? They're used when necessary, yes, just like any function. And no IDE is required. I'm really puzzled.

xonre|3 months ago

PHP should do a real major compatibility break and remove $ sigil from variable names. It's gonna be worth the pain!

johannes1234321|3 months ago

Hello Perl 6!

Such a change makes it a completely different language with no compatibility. Thus all previous code is lost, no easy migration paths (especially for libraries which would like to support both during transition)

hu3|3 months ago

I would love that. But yeah, it would probably kill PHP because it would break all code.

Maybe https://getrector.com could auto-fix 99% of code but it would still be very hard to get adoption.

thefounder|3 months ago

I think php should have stopped at php4 or php5 and maybe just develop a new/sane standard library.

And a new language could have been developed , call it hack or whatever Facebook tried. Anyway I remember php coding gave me headaches. Tried it again 2 years ago and found out the same kind of issues(outdated /inexistent documentation, different ways to do the same thing that actually didn’t work and stuff like that). Try to connect to sql database using ssl and see what I mean.

I see no reason to learn PHP anymore or start up your company using php. We live in a vps/docker age. The advantage of php hosts everywhere has been lost.

hu3|3 months ago

Without specifics it's hard to understand what kind of difficulties you had.

But PHP is still so strong because it offers much more than "easy hosting".

What I personaly love most is the instant save file->see results feedback loop. There's no perceptible compilation step. Meanwhile my Java project takes a minute to compile.

Also the shared-nothing model by default is powerful and rare.

Laravel is probably the most well documented frameworks even comparing frameworks from other languages. And symfony, also a PHP framework, is not far from that.

When you say "SSL" I can only think your reasoning is based on outdated information since no one calls it SSL anymore. It's TLS for some years now. And I have been connecting to databases using PHP TLS/SSL since version 5. For almost a decade now.