[drats]

"Dumbblack"

"then proceeds to do what black men always can’t help but do"

"black men always telling which way is up because they feel they are the “authority” when it comes to any and everything, most often when they don’t know shit about shit"

" I know when black people start to speak down to me from their pedatsol which is white privilege, they aren’t listening, nor will they"

"I cannot afford to take black people’s shit anymore."

Those are all quotes from the article, except I put 'black' where the author put 'white', both sets are clearly an unacceptable way to speak. While I am sure this guy has faced real disadvantage from some bigoted people, this post is laced with racism against white people and ridiculously over-the-top statements about colonialism and "neoliberal white supremacy".

[famousactress]

Let's pretend for a minute that I think it's reasonable to swap black & white in these sentences and call them equivalent (I don't)... There's still a mammoth difference between opinions someone writes on a blog and things people say to their employees or coworkers at work.

I can't think of a time that I faced the level of ugliness laid out in this story even once in my 32 years, so the last thing that occurs to me when I read something like this is "Wow, the author is saying some completely unacceptably racist things"

[EDIT: Shit. I'm 34, not 32 or even 33. I have no idea why I can't keep that straight.]

[Tipzntrix]

The tone isn't helping his case.

I've been around these kind of complaints in person, and while I know that the injustices taking place are horrible and uncalled for, I also know that the complainer is also (not-so-subtly any more) racist as well. Perhaps he wasn't before he entered the school system or the workforce (not necessarily this job), but saying things like dumbwhite*, bringing up colonization like slavery as property is taking place in his neighbourhood (he's going through legal to get this solved, something slaves could never do), and repeatedly bringing up that his tormentors are white, male, rich, etc. just shows that he's brought his own racist viewpoints to the table.

This reminds me of the atmosphere in South Africa years after apartheid was rescinded. The atmosphere, not the gruesome crimes. Perhaps it can be justified, but it sure wasn't how MLK Jr. or Mandela (at least after he became president) attacked the problem and it's only good for outrage, not getting anything done.

White guilt isn't going to help solve racism, but I agree that the author deserves some justice.

[davidtyleryork]

Yeah, this pretty much nails it.

[seagreen]

Maybe you had a job or something that required you to write your name a lot when you were 32? I keep getting my address mixed up because it's almost, but not quite, identical to my old one. It can be pretty embarrassing.

[rauljara]

You're leaving out a pretty important bit of context. He isn't talking about white people in general, here. He is talking about a very specific subset of people who have had power over him, and said pretty racist things to him. I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to my white mother when he said dumbwhite.

While I agree that the saintly thing to is respond without bringing up your persecutors' race, I am pretty sympathetic to people who have been the victims of overt racism seeing some things in terms of race. They've had their faces rubbed in it.

And I'm sorry to come down hard on you, but it's pretty arrogant to tell someone who is still suffering the consequences of being harassed because of his race not to take notice of the race of the people harassing him.

[methoddk]

That bit of context is irrelevant. He frequently used the extremely general term, "Dumbwhite motherfucker.", which is blatantly racist and makes his complete argument null and void, because the comments he makes in this post are no better than the crap he heard at his job.

Sincerity and respect for a person's race does not take a backseat just because someone made racist remarks to someone else. I've been the victim of racist remarks and I'm white, that doesn't make it okay for me to refer to the other person by their race. In fact, it makes it WORSE.

Being tolerant of ANYONE using racism for ANY reason is not okay.

EDIT: The more I read your comment, the more it looks like you support racism as a means of retaliation to racism. This is why racism still (and always) exists.

[chojeen]

> You're leaving out a pretty important bit of context. He isn't talking about white people in general, here. He is talking about a very specific subset of people who have had power over him, and said pretty racist things to him. I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to my white mother when he said dumbwhite.

So racial epithets are OK as long as you're targeting a group of people who have wronged you? Got it.

Not that it in any way legitimizes the vile things that were said to the man.

[lucian1900]

If I said "dumbblack motherfucker", I'd be called racist. The OP is being racist, regardless of what has or has not happened to him.

[tptacek]

WHO CARES? Yes, let's suspend his Guardian Of Society Medal Of Honor until we sort his personal politics out. Meanwhile, this guy says that management at a large SF gaming company is routinely harassing black and latino staff members. The story here isn't about him.

[columbo]

> WHO CARES?

It unnecessarily adds doubt to the claims being made. If your narrator has an agenda it becomes difficult to trust that narrator.

[lumberjack]

If somebody is prone to see the world in a black and white us v. them way, they might have a different perception of what is really happening, leading them to conclude that everybody is discriminating against them.

I'm not saying that this is what happened. You asked why it might be relevant and I just wanted to point this out.

[bmj]

I agree, but some of his content will be a barrier for some people. I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive.

IANAL, but I wonder if this post will hurt his chances of successfully pursuing his employers?

[sown]

I find it curious that the biggest arguments against his story are not addressing the author's central point.

[KirinDave]

This is one of those things where you are both correct but miss the point. Yes, this sort of language is not tolerable. Yes, it's also the sort of generalizations the author is railing about. Absolutely.

However, let's take the story at face value for a second. What occured between this person and the people around him wasn't just inappropriate workplace conduct, it was systemic and demeaning in a way that is hard for someone to get if they're not the subject of it. Most people are not wired to take this kind of abuse in a sustained way. This person is hurt, they're confused, they feel powerless, and they're lashing out.

So I think we can probably get to the victim's fucked up statements after we let the outrage over the institutionalized racism that the story consists of simmer down, don't you think? I've said some pretty dumb, mean things when I'm suffering from emotional trauma, haven't you? At least we have an excuse and we can apologize and say, "That was my anger and frustration, I know it's wrong."

But perhaps what makes me most angry is that other members of this team were complicit in this treatment. They're not stopping it, they're not complaining, they're not resigning, they're not objecting. It's terrifying.

[king_jester]

This is the equivalent of saying the author of this post is a reverse racist. When was the last time a white person was killed for being white? When was the last time someone came up to a white person and said they should be grateful that their ancestors were slaves? When was the last time the government systematically dismantled the white community in order to enforce racist class oppression?

Repeat after me: WHITE PEOPLE DO NOT SUFFER FROM RACISM. Even if an individual was prejudiced against someone because they are white, they would not be affected outside of that one interaction. White folks' social standing and ability to survive are not attacked daily on the basis of their skin.

EDIT: This is in context for the United States based on the blog author being in SF.

[JPKab]

Take a walk through half of Baltimore, friend, and you will discover that you will get the shit kicked out of you for being white. Murdered? Hopefully not, but I can assure you that, while the old, racist, static power structures of the USA are oppressive towards non-whites, power is not a static thing. It shifts depending on where you are. When you are taking said walk in Baltimore, and become surrounded by people who don't like you because of your skin color, you don't have power anymore. They do. I know this first hand. When I was 16, I took a short cut through a neighborhood that I shouldn't have. I was chased, cornered, and beaten by 5 young men. They were black, and they were yelling white slurs as they beat me and then branded the back of my neck with a lighter. I still have that little smiley on the back of my neck to this day. They didn't rob me by the way. NONE of my money was taken. They didn't even touch my wallet. They didn't want a white person in their neighborhood. Your theory holds up because you, clearly, have never lived in a majority black neighborhood in your entire life. It's obvious by your stupid statement. And no, I'm not a racist. Most of the black folks I grew up with would never have tolerated such a thing. They would have stopped it if they had seen it, but they weren't there.

[ditonal]

This attitude, and the casual "reverse" racism of this author, sets back social progress against institutional racism against blacks/hispanics so much.

I totally accept that blacks face more racism in many aspects of society today, especially professionally. But in Baltimore a bunch of black kids jumped me, and they told me it was because I was white and I "thought I could walk around their neighborhood" (a block from Penn Station which is actually pretty gentrified). It wasn't even a robbery, although they did rob me, but if that was their only goal they wouldn't have continued to beat me for the ten minutes after I had given up. Oh, and of course that's not considered a hate crime.

So when that happens, and then you tell me, in all caps, that white people are never the victims of racism, do you think I'm more or less inclined to agree with your other points?

[clavalle]

"When was the last time a white person was killed for being white?"

I wasn't killed but I was beat to a pulp one day for being white by a group of people. My crime? Trying to shake a guy's hand that walked up to me. Apparently that was some sort of insult. Not institutional enough for you? A non-white police officer was literally 20 feet away from me and did absolutely nothing. Probably because he was scared.

I've never had it happen to me before or since but to say someone cannot be violently targeted for being white is absurd. Was it racism? Well, that depends on your definition of racism. Some only consider it racism when perpetrated by someone who belongs to a group that traditionally has less power. But, I'll tell you, I felt pretty powerless that day in the face of a group with more power than I possessed at that moment.

[sanswork]

White people might not suffer from racism where you are but thats not to say they never suffer from racism. Racism exists against all races and all over the world. We shouldn't be focusing on the race of the victims or even the perpetrators we should be focusing on stopping it period.

[protomyth]

> Repeat after me: WHITE PEOPLE DO NOT SUFFER FROM RACISM

That's a load of crap. I am considered "white" (you need papers and blood quote to prove you're Native American despite what some senatorial candidate thinks), and I have gotten a ton of crap because I grew up on a reservation not of my father's tribe. And no, I did not get to flee to the mystically accepting fellow white folk in the the town next door (I lived on the rez after all and am related).

The brain is an amazing pattern matching machine. You missed matching the whole pattern.

[defen]

> When was the last time a white person was killed for being white

You're not helping your cause by making ridiculous statements. The most recent one I could find was 2 weeks ago. http://kstp.com/news/stories/s2778011.shtml

You have to go here to see the police report: http://lakeminnetonka.patch.com/articles/arrest-made-in-conn...

But you have to understand the rules of the game. Unless a black person is literally shouting "die whitey" while stomping someone to death, then it's not a hate crime when a black person attacks a white person, regardless of actual motivation or lack thereof. It's just another random senseless crime and not part of a pattern. See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_an...

[ctdonath]

Oh, yes we do and are.

[solveew]

Just look at the interracial rape and murder statistics. Blacks target whites for rape and murder in great quantities. During the Trayvon Martin debacle, a white kid in Kansas city was DOUSED IN GASOLINE and SET ON FIRE while two black kids say "you get what you deserve, white boy." Of course, you don't hear this in the media because the media wants to perpetuate a myth that whites aren't victims of racist violence. In reality, they are the primary ones.

I am slavic. Wendish, specifically, if you are familiar. I am glad that my ancestors were enslaved for a while. It brought my culture out of petty infighting and settled us in Northern Europe. My life is better today because my ancestors were enslaved. For me to run around with a chip on my shoulder demanding reparations would be ridiculous.

The government does systematically dismantle white communities. Try running around saying you're proud of being white. You're instantly labeled a bigot. A man recently tried trademarking the phrase "white pride, country wide". Despite trademarks for everything from "jewish pride" to "latino pride", he was denied. The FBI specifically targets white nationalist organizations-- Randy Weaver had his wife and son murdered at Ruby Ridge because he refused to falsely testify against his Aryan Nations associates.

Respectfully, I think you are mistaken. Whites are the people that built this country, and we are under attack for the same reason that Marathis are under attack in India, and Gazprom is stealing land from Nigerians. Bankers and commodity magnates would separate those attached to the soil from the lands which rightfully belong to them, so they can endlessly charge them for being there, as well as steal all the resources.

[rmc]

There are several definitions of racist talk, one is essentially "making references to someone's race and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)". Lots of people like this definition because it's nice and simple and it means black people in the USA can be racist to white people if they say things like "Dumbwhite".

There's another definition, which is talk that's designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among races. Right now, if modern USA life was a video game, "white male" would be an easier difficulty level than "black male". There are statistically less problems for the "white male" group. Racist talk is talk that re-enforced that imbalance. This definition is harder for some people to accept because it means that you need to look at yourself and think about what power imbalances you might be benefiting from, and it means you can't just do s/white/black/g and make it just as racist.

So no, it's more racist to say "dumbblack" than "dumbwhite"

[tsahyt]

> it's more racist to say "dumbblack" than "dumbwhite"

There are degrees of racism? Wasn't that a binary thing? I understand that racists aren't created equal since some are filled with more prejudices than others but I think the same doesn't apply to racism itself. I'm not arguing that life is harder for people who are (or so we are told, I've got no data) the majority of victims but a victim being racist isn't being "less racist" after all. He's contributing to a vicious circle. Whilst I understand such behaviour from an emotional point of view, it's definitely not wise.

[shardling]

>There's another definition, which is talk that's designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among races.

I generally think it's safer to frame in terms of the effect (which you mostly do) than motivation. Even if someone has no ill intent, and simply talks a certain way because they haven't really thought about the issues, their speech still does harm.

[chojeen]

> So no, it's more racist to say "dumbblack" than "dumbwhite"

That's like saying that steak is food, but ramen isn't. Clearly, steak is considered a higher-quality food, but that doesn't negate the fact that ramen is food as well.

Due to the historical mistreatment of black people in America, it is more socially unacceptable to say something like "dumbblack"; however, "dumbwhite" is no less accurately described by 'a hatred or intolerance of another race'.

[anigbrowl]

That's true, but - and it's a big, big but - he doesn't have any power over you. He's venting his feelings about his experience, but the people he's talking about are his employers and that puts him in the position of having to accept their mockery and control over his wardrobe in order to keep receiving a paycheck.

See, while I think the author has something of a chip on his shoulder, he's got some historical and demographic basis for it, and chips weigh more heavily on younger shoulders; it's easier for me to be philosophical about life's obstacles insofar as I've survived to middle age in reasonable comfort and so on. And no, I don't think this is an unacceptable way to speak. It's unacceptable in the workplace, and I'd be lukewarm towards it in a social context, but people have to the freedom to think and express things that I find odious to the extent that I have the freedom to disagree or walk away without any negative consequences. That's not the case in an employment situation, because while you can walk away there's a measurable economic cost to doing so.

[danielweber]

It's possible this guy is a jerk and that this company is a bunch of assholes. You don't minimize one party's guilt by pointing out the other party's guilt.

EDIT: plus, it's easy for me to avoid dealing with this guy. I won't be his friend. But I really worry about the culture of the software industry, and if Kixeye spreads to mean more asshole workplaces, that's something that's a lot harder to avoid.

[MartinCron]

If there were a prize for totally missing the point by being pedantic and insensitive, you would win. Congrats!

[juridatenshi]

http://derailingfordummies.com/complete.html

[AJ007]

Hacker News has taken another step towards Gawker. If this kind of garbage was modded up here every day, I would find somewhere else to find real news.

[hack_edu]

Calm down pal. Nowhere does the author imply he thinks using white in those circumstances would be any less racist... No one's out to get you.

[FireBeyond]

No, he doesn't. He just tells you how horrific it is that they are being racist, whilst ignoring the fact that he's letting off racist jibes any time someone says something ignorant (and in at least one of the occasions, honestly, not wilfully so).