[jgilias]

It’s not about champagne. It’s about us not making anything like the Patriot air defense system. Or us not having the capabilities to command our disparate militaries cohesively without US involvement in NATO. The whole Western order has been built on the premise of US being the corner stone that ties everything together.

Thank God the French have always been suspicious about it since the Suez crisis, hence we _do_ have at least some independent capabilities.

[gizmo]

For those who don't know, the French (and British) instigated the Suez crisis. It was a highly illegal attempt at regime change in Egypt and the US along with the USSR and United Nations rightfully pressured the French to stop. Bizarre example to illustrate the need for military independence.

[Sammi]

Unfortunately your assessment is based on the faulty premise that anyone in international politics does anything to be nice.

The US doesn't give one rats ass about Egypt. The US won and got their way in Suez and the international seas in general. Europe lost.

There is no right in geo politics - only might. It's completely machiavellian. This is because you don't get to elect your neighbors leaders, and so they aren't beholden to you. International politics fundamentally doesn't work like national politics because of this. You can't stop Putin, Trump, or Xi, from taking what is yours unless you have the steel and oil to stop them. You can't sue them or vote them out like in national politics.

[disgruntledphd2]

This is entirely true, but it's still good that as a result of this, the French prioritised independent defence policies for the last 60+ years.

[jgilias]

It’s not an example, it’s a timeline.

[mambru]

SAMP/T is quite good.