I don't understand why they're calling out the FPS of an empty scene as a useful number compared to Unity though. Ignoring that this engine will have a fraction of the features of Unity (the likely reason for the FPS number in the first place), it's just a useless benchmark because it's an empty scene. `while (true) {}` will get you the same thing.
I'd wish they'd highlight how the engine helps you make a game rather than arbitrary performance numbers on microbenchmarks that don't generalize to a real game project. You can absolutely be faster than Unity, but "9 times faster than Unity out of the box" is not a number people should take seriously without the context of where the number comes from.
I wish them well though. I'm always interested to see more work in implementing engines in GC languages. I'm personally quite interested to see what can be done in modern GC languages like Go or (modern) C# which provide lots of tools to limit GC pressure. Being able to write C-like code where needed in an otherwise managed runtime is a really powerful tool that can provide a best-of-both-worlds environment.
Agreed. Unity has a ton of features that even Godot lacks. (Unreal also has a ton of features they all lack).
I know a lot of different languages and frameworks, from C/C++ up, so I say this: The language is never the issue. Language is just syntax. ease of use is everything.
I've been wanting to make a game for a long time. I toyed with OpenGL/DirectX at multiple points since the 90s, even going so far as to creating a really cool tech demo/engine that scales with CPU core count. However, those days are in the past. I really want to focus on not writing a ton of graphics and sound code. I really want to focus on the game logic and the game itself.
The above is one of the reasons I'm finding it hard to get into Godot, even though I *really* like the project (and wish I could fund it, alas, I'm unemployed, permanently). Unity just happens to be robust enough that I might be able to scrap together a prototype. It has built in things like a terrain editor, tons of educational material, an asset store to get some placeholder assets, etc.
I saw a comment mentioning how Warcraft 2 was so awesome because it had a great editor. I saw that and also Starcraft had an amazing editor. Neverwinter Nights also had an amazing editor. We need something like that with a good license to build games. Every engine that even somewhat approaches that area blows up in complexity, has a super restrictive license, or doesn't allow you to build your own executables.
RPGMaker actually is pretty decent for 2D games, however the fixed resolution and constant dramatic shifts between versions, previous licensing issues (I haven't looked at their current license), and more make it a no go for a serious commercial game...and it doesn't do 3D.
Sorry for the rant. Don't even get me started on how much more complicated the transitions from DX8-DX12 or OpenGL 1.x/2.x -> Anything else have been. ;)
I see it as overhead for the base engine. Though yes, even unity has some post processing built in that would affect performance.
But, I will always correct the cardinal sin of "using FPS to measure performance". Especially for an empty scene, this is pretty much snake oil. 200 fps is 5 milliseconds 1800 fps is a little pver half a millisecond. Giving back 4.5 milliseconds doesn't means much if any sense of real work will add it back.
GitHub is filled with these because it’s always easier to make an engine than a game. You play with the fun tech and make the graphics engine. You never make any tough tradeoffs because you don’t have a target to aim at.
When an engine becomes useful is when it has to make a game. All your abstractions tend to get rearranged and hard decisions are made.
> it’s always easier to make an engine than a game.
It could just be different interests. The kind of person who makes a game engine is a technical optimization-focused tech-focused person, sort of like a mechanic. In order to make a game, you have to deal with softer concepts like "is this fun" which is more like a designer/artist. Game studios need to bring these people together, but in the FOSS world the mechanics are happy to spend their time building an engine that runs beautifully without concerning themselves with the art side of things.
Having spent a couple decades making engines that did ship games, now I spend a fair bit of free time helping noobs make engines even though statistically nearly none of them end up shipping games.
Making a game engine is a fun and highly-engaging means to learning high-performance programming. Yes, it would be better if you also were able to invest enough to ship a game. But, don't let the infeasibility of that goal stop you from learning and having fun.
Its a nice portfolio project. A toy renderer (at least, when the job market wasn't so dearth) leading to a thesis or an engine programmer position at some AAA studio is a very worthwhile tradeoff.
The skillset and ontent is also just different. You don't see games on github (publicly) because they are being made for sale. Very few engine projects are serious commercial projects. I think I'd be safe to say that a commercial engine is harder than making a commercial game. Especially since Unity and Unreal have mindshare and are free to start and learn with.
It's easier to throw yourself into a programming project as a programmer than learn completely new skills: art, design, music. Instead the fantasy is that either the game engine is so great people will come make games, or the game engine will support something so radically different the programmer art gets ignored (see simulation games like Minecraft or Factorio). I'm convinced that's why there are so many engines with no games.
After 10 minutes of digging I managed to find one single screenshot of an actual game built with it. Isn't that the first thing a developer wants to see?
What does a screenshot of a game tell you about the engine or the developer experience? If you can push triangles and run shaders you can render anything.
I watched a video presentation and cringed a bit to be honest.
I've done a bit of 3D with Go some time ago ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjn3twYB7xQ ) and quickly realized it's not a viable tool because of the huge FFI overhead... weird to see all this claims about performance in an engine that will leave so much on the table every single time it makes a call into Vulkan... as soon a decent scene will be added it'll crawl to a stop.
I wish Go didn't have this performance bottleneck because I really like the language and it would be a great middle ground for indie like games that don't want to follow the big engines route but sadly any kind of request of a faster path to call cgo was ignored by the Go team as games is not really something they are interested in.
Still best of luck to the guy but eventually he'll hit a wall and all the claims about performance will look funny.
The “9x faster than Unity” line also jumped out at me. Empty-scene benchmarks are basically a measurement of how thin your abstraction layer is, not how the engine behaves under actual game workloads.
What is interesting, though, is that engines like this often reveal how much overhead comes from tooling, scene graph complexity, editor integrations, GC pressure, etc. Sometimes a very lean engine feels “faster” simply because it avoids all the layers that a mature engine needs to support large teams.
I’d love to see a demo that stresses real systems — entity updates, materials, batching, physics, etc. That would say far more about the architecture than raw FPS of drawing nothing.
A GC language is a non-starter for a game engine, I thought this was "game development 101" level knowledge. There is a reason every major game engine actually used to make games is written in C++, with some scripting language on top of that for game logic if necessary.
The author calls this out and tries to brush it off with FPS figures,
> The current version of the base engine renders extremely fast, faster than most would think a garbage collected language could go. In my testing a release mode build of a game in Unity with nothing but a black background and a cube runs at about 1,600 FPS.
But straight-up FPS is generally not the main concern with GC in a game engine, it's GC pausing which can make an otherwise smooth game feel almost unplayable. I don't know anything about Go so maybe this is less of a concern in that language?
In my experience, when using Unity, I became acutely aware of creating garbage and how to avoid it. I used to see a lot of object pooling which is basically a makeshift arena allocator.
Why would you want segmented stacks, cgo FFI overhead, goroutines, & asynchronous preemption for a game engine? Odin is better suited than Go is for this type of software. Almost any programming language would have been a better choice here. This is rage bait I'm sure.
I've been put off a lot of other engines and frameworks because I really miss programming in Go, so this is super cool.
Historically Go was viewed as not the best choice for game Dev because it's GC process was known to cause periodic blips of load, but I wonder now how smooth it is now. I believe one can also plug in arena managed memory and alternatives of that I'll.
I love the idea of using Go for games, but go-routines and channels aren't really low-enough latency to be used in games. In particular, ebiten, one of the largest go game engines doesn't use a single go-routine under the hood for (presumably) this very reason. Attempting to use channels and such in my own project (https://thomashansen.xyz/blog/ebiten-and-go.html) left me with about 70% cpu utilization I couldn't pass
On Windows this only has a resolution of ~0.5ms (down from ~15.6ms when this frame limiting code was written). It also is not synchronized to when frames need to be submitted which means that depending on when the timer is created it can result in the game having stutter.
They're not using a library like SDL for windowing and input as far as I can tell. All the MacOS interfaces are in Objective-C or Swift, which I would wager (I've never used Go fwiw) aren't as easy to bind to from Go code.
MoltenVK has some extra interfaces you need to integrate with too, it's not a completely hands off setup.
Is there something that gives it that impression? Didn't look at it too hard, but the readme tells a story of focused passion for the language, and programming in general. Vibe documented?
MindSpunk|2 months ago
I don't understand why they're calling out the FPS of an empty scene as a useful number compared to Unity though. Ignoring that this engine will have a fraction of the features of Unity (the likely reason for the FPS number in the first place), it's just a useless benchmark because it's an empty scene. `while (true) {}` will get you the same thing.
I'd wish they'd highlight how the engine helps you make a game rather than arbitrary performance numbers on microbenchmarks that don't generalize to a real game project. You can absolutely be faster than Unity, but "9 times faster than Unity out of the box" is not a number people should take seriously without the context of where the number comes from.
I wish them well though. I'm always interested to see more work in implementing engines in GC languages. I'm personally quite interested to see what can be done in modern GC languages like Go or (modern) C# which provide lots of tools to limit GC pressure. Being able to write C-like code where needed in an otherwise managed runtime is a really powerful tool that can provide a best-of-both-worlds environment.
eek2121|2 months ago
I know a lot of different languages and frameworks, from C/C++ up, so I say this: The language is never the issue. Language is just syntax. ease of use is everything.
I've been wanting to make a game for a long time. I toyed with OpenGL/DirectX at multiple points since the 90s, even going so far as to creating a really cool tech demo/engine that scales with CPU core count. However, those days are in the past. I really want to focus on not writing a ton of graphics and sound code. I really want to focus on the game logic and the game itself.
The above is one of the reasons I'm finding it hard to get into Godot, even though I *really* like the project (and wish I could fund it, alas, I'm unemployed, permanently). Unity just happens to be robust enough that I might be able to scrap together a prototype. It has built in things like a terrain editor, tons of educational material, an asset store to get some placeholder assets, etc.
I saw a comment mentioning how Warcraft 2 was so awesome because it had a great editor. I saw that and also Starcraft had an amazing editor. Neverwinter Nights also had an amazing editor. We need something like that with a good license to build games. Every engine that even somewhat approaches that area blows up in complexity, has a super restrictive license, or doesn't allow you to build your own executables.
RPGMaker actually is pretty decent for 2D games, however the fixed resolution and constant dramatic shifts between versions, previous licensing issues (I haven't looked at their current license), and more make it a no go for a serious commercial game...and it doesn't do 3D.
Sorry for the rant. Don't even get me started on how much more complicated the transitions from DX8-DX12 or OpenGL 1.x/2.x -> Anything else have been. ;)
johnnyanmac|2 months ago
But, I will always correct the cardinal sin of "using FPS to measure performance". Especially for an empty scene, this is pretty much snake oil. 200 fps is 5 milliseconds 1800 fps is a little pver half a millisecond. Giving back 4.5 milliseconds doesn't means much if any sense of real work will add it back.
james2doyle|2 months ago
groundzeros2015|2 months ago
When an engine becomes useful is when it has to make a game. All your abstractions tend to get rearranged and hard decisions are made.
craftkiller|2 months ago
It could just be different interests. The kind of person who makes a game engine is a technical optimization-focused tech-focused person, sort of like a mechanic. In order to make a game, you have to deal with softer concepts like "is this fun" which is more like a designer/artist. Game studios need to bring these people together, but in the FOSS world the mechanics are happy to spend their time building an engine that runs beautifully without concerning themselves with the art side of things.
corysama|2 months ago
Making a game engine is a fun and highly-engaging means to learning high-performance programming. Yes, it would be better if you also were able to invest enough to ship a game. But, don't let the infeasibility of that goal stop you from learning and having fun.
johnnyanmac|2 months ago
The skillset and ontent is also just different. You don't see games on github (publicly) because they are being made for sale. Very few engine projects are serious commercial projects. I think I'd be safe to say that a commercial engine is harder than making a commercial game. Especially since Unity and Unreal have mindshare and are free to start and learn with.
starkparker|2 months ago
I usually look for games on websites like Itch.io. You might want to try that if you're having trouble finding websites that have games on them.
dexwiz|2 months ago
samdoesnothing|2 months ago
pants2|2 months ago
https://unity.com/ leads with demos.
https://kaijuengine.org/ leads with a block of text claiming it renders cubes faster than Unity.
efskap|2 months ago
p2detar|2 months ago
> The engine is not released and is under heavy development.
kunos|2 months ago
I wish Go didn't have this performance bottleneck because I really like the language and it would be a great middle ground for indie like games that don't want to follow the big engines route but sadly any kind of request of a faster path to call cgo was ignored by the Go team as games is not really something they are interested in.
Still best of luck to the guy but eventually he'll hit a wall and all the claims about performance will look funny.
nish__|2 months ago
artur44|2 months ago
What is interesting, though, is that engines like this often reveal how much overhead comes from tooling, scene graph complexity, editor integrations, GC pressure, etc. Sometimes a very lean engine feels “faster” simply because it avoids all the layers that a mature engine needs to support large teams.
I’d love to see a demo that stresses real systems — entity updates, materials, batching, physics, etc. That would say far more about the architecture than raw FPS of drawing nothing.
drnick1|2 months ago
maccard|2 months ago
efskap|2 months ago
mvdtnz|2 months ago
> The current version of the base engine renders extremely fast, faster than most would think a garbage collected language could go. In my testing a release mode build of a game in Unity with nothing but a black background and a cube runs at about 1,600 FPS.
But straight-up FPS is generally not the main concern with GC in a game engine, it's GC pausing which can make an otherwise smooth game feel almost unplayable. I don't know anything about Go so maybe this is less of a concern in that language?
bob1029|2 months ago
wredcoll|2 months ago
nullbyte808|2 months ago
bobajeff|2 months ago
Are there a lot of Unity/Godot devs unaware that their engines are using GC? I would assume they'd have accepted the cost of GC already.
Unreal devs I can understand having an issue with it though.
tapoxi|2 months ago
Other languages that bind into the engine do this too, (C++, SwiftGodot, Rust-Godot)
C# obviously does, Miguel de Icaza actually started SwiftGodot because he (ironically) ended up hating GC pauses after promoting C# for so long
pjmlp|2 months ago
The times of pure manual memory management game engines, across all layers of what requires to draw a frame are long gone.
Naturally someone is going to point out some game engine using compiled C dynamic libraries for scripting, those are the exception.
jayd16|2 months ago
If you spend a week in these engines you're well aware of the garbage collector.
unclad5968|2 months ago
chekibreki|2 months ago
jadsfwasdfsd|2 months ago
Maybe TinyGo can save their ass here?
liampulles|2 months ago
Historically Go was viewed as not the best choice for game Dev because it's GC process was known to cause periodic blips of load, but I wonder now how smooth it is now. I believe one can also plug in arena managed memory and alternatives of that I'll.
guywithahat|2 months ago
iamcreasy|2 months ago
If the author reading: I am curious to see an worked out example where writing the assembly code was necessary.
charcircuit|2 months ago
On Windows this only has a resolution of ~0.5ms (down from ~15.6ms when this frame limiting code was written). It also is not synchronized to when frames need to be submitted which means that depending on when the timer is created it can result in the game having stutter.
AmbroseBierce|2 months ago
etse|2 months ago
MindSpunk|2 months ago
MoltenVK has some extra interfaces you need to integrate with too, it's not a completely hands off setup.
system2|2 months ago
999900000999|2 months ago
With such an outrageous and unfounded statement, I'm just going to assume the project isn't worth taking seriously.
Make a real game first, and then we'll talk.
chrisjj|2 months ago
Aeolun|2 months ago
jdc0589|2 months ago
10/10
slingexe|2 months ago
nsxwolf|2 months ago
JokerDan|2 months ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWVKeKpNQto
The channel has a few videos on it, not watched any other than this introductory one but some of the titles look interesting.
Also the introduction video above states an initial requirement of 'every PR must have a video' but it looks like that got dropped a while ago.
TheDong|2 months ago
kgwxd|2 months ago