I treat the spoons and ladles I carve with food grade organic flax/linseed oil and roast in a fan oven at 180 deg C, giving a robust coating that is also very safe. A few coats are required to fill all the pores in the wood for a beautiful satin finish but all the coats can be completed in a couple of hours total. Colours start at a something slightly darker than the natural oil colour and darken to the colour of chocolate depending on how long they’re in the oven for. The smell is of hot cooking oil unless you go for full chocolate brown in which case it starts to smell of burnt oil and a bit smoky. Fully dry your item first and heat it up slowly in the oven to 180 deg C before applying the first coat so that all areas cure and colour equally. Saturate the wood initially then wipe off all excess with a paper towel which you can then use to add the subsequent coats. Check on the spoon and remove any drips that appear during roasting before they harden. Silicone oven mitts are great for handling the spoons while hot.
Author here, I also bought a dehydrator to keep my finished spoons at 70C (158F) for 10 hours to speed up the curing of the tung oil. It really works wonders!
I prefer to keep the original color of the wood I sell, so lower temperatures are better for me, but I like the look of toasted wood as well.
My problem with just oil is that the finish is very matte, hence the wax and resin complication I'm going through in the article. But matte is also a look that people look for so there's no problem in that, it's just my personal preference and style that's different.
Do those oils polymerize at that temperature and are those polymers food safe? Also how stable are they since spatulas routinely come into contact with high temperatures?
I honestly do not know because while I have read that specifically boiled linseed oil does cure to be safe it was not clear to me whether it was safe for skin contact or fully food safe and food safe isn’t the same thing as safe for e.g. stirring pasta as it boils or stirring food that is frying in oil.
Could you deep fry the spoons in your oil of choice? Imagine a commercial fry cook from a fast food restaurant. The heat would open the wood pores there by removing moisture content replaced with penetrant from the oil bath. Remove, let cool, and wipe off. In theory I don't believe there's anything wrong with the idea.
Some recommend non-edible petrol-based mineral oil (aka liquid parrafin) because it doesn’t go rancid, but has the same effect of not actually doing much for protection and will leak into hot liquids.
Why even use wood if you’re going to cover it in a layer of clear plastic?
I find it amusing that those who will use wood or "natural" (petroleum is also naturally occurring...) products for some sort of weird misguided eco-virtue-signaling, inevitably end up needing to basically reinvent the chemistry of finding an inert, durable material that brought us modern plastics. All these drying oils create a layer of polymerised material, which can be classed as plastic anyway. Waxes, regardless of source, attribute their properties to long hydrocarbon chains, just like polyethylene.
Author here, I was mostly referring to the practice of coating the wood in a layer of smooth plastic that makes the wood not feel and look like wood anymore. It's like something that you want to keep encased forever.
I'm of the same opinion as you, drying oil polymers are still plastic, it's just that their method of curing makes them look better on wood, most likely because of the very thin layer that remains at the surface, but also because of the polymer surface texture.
Every epoxy resin, even the more penetrant ones, end up looking like plastic on wood, not sure how else to describe it.
But in terms of chemistry, food safety and how inert they are, they are indistinguishable.
I'm also aware mineral oil is food safe, I was trying to say that it will leak into the hot food and not stay in the wood fibers, which renders the finish useless after just one use.
There is a large difference between extracting fossil fuels from the ground and using substances extracted from plants. Only one of them is renewable, and hence the only sustainable way for the human species to live.
I have used a 50/50 blend of food-safe mineral oil and beeswax with good success on my little hobby projects (and as a regular treatment for my cutting board) but admittedly I'm not making ladles you'd dip into boiling soup, so I paid less attention to the extreme temperature issue
My biggest grief with wooden utensils replaceing plastic ones and cardboard(-ish) cup lids replacing plastic lids is the texture - I almost shudder everytime these environmentally friendly replacements touch my mouth, to the point that I eat in the most ridiculous way in order to avoid having to touch the wooden fork when I'm trying to get the food off of it.
And the reason is exactly the finish. Metal and plastic spoons, forks, lids, etc. are nice and smooth and don't get in your way. Cheaply made wood or cardboards ones are rough and tacky.
Of course you could argue that from an environmental standpoint, that's not a bug but a feature: now I'm using even less disposable stuff (first, no plastic because it's been replaced by other stuff; and second also the replacements because I hate using them).
Try bamboo chopsticks. They are smooth because they are made parallel to the grain. There is minimal end grain surface area, so you rarely have to interact with the rough bits. And they do almost everything you'd want a consumer-oriented utensil to do.
This is the hardest thing about selling wooden spoons and especially cups. Like you, most people think about the rough texture they felt when using cheap or disposable wooden utensils.
My spoons and cups feel more like warm textured ceramic. They are sanded to a high 600 grit, water popped multiple times to make sure the grain doesn't raise and the texture stays smooth, and finished with drying oils as you see in the article to keep the surface highly hydrophobic.
I really can't describe it in words, but everyone I know who tried eating with my wooden spoons and drank from my coffee cups, was pleasantly surprised of the feeling.
That's why most of my sales happen in person at local craft markets, because there, people can take the cup into their hand, they can feel the smoothness, and they can ask about the same things you are worried about.
All I can recommend is find a spoon carver in your area, or one that ships there, and try a hand carved eating spoon. I'm not saying it's better than metal, ceramic or plastic, it's just a different experience that some people enjoy.
My partial solution is to look a bit silly and shove the utensil in my mouth while I walk around setting up the meal (finding a seat, opening the package etc). Wetting the eating surface with your saliva for ~30-60 seconds helps a lot.
Yeah people fuss over wooden spoons way too much. My wooden spoons cost me $1-2 each at Walmart, and I abuse the hell out of them knowing that if I ever need to replace them, I have more than got my money's worth.
>You can use soap if you want, but studies have shown it doesn’t make a difference.
(...no links provided). Really? "Studies show" you don't need to use soap to rinse off the wooden cutting board you just chopped up raw chicken on? Without a citation there I'm extremely skeptical
Sure, but the article is mainly about looks (and in the case of wood cups, which seem fairly impractical, although sake cups are ok unfinished, taste transfer). They can look nicer with a finish. I generally dont care, I keep my salad spoons with some oil, and my cooking spoons plain.
Woodworker and person who has spent a tremendous amount of time on wood finishing chemistry here.
This is very confused.
First, all wood finishes you can buy are food-safe once cured. They aren't allowed to be sold otherwise, at least in the US/Europe/et al.
If you are using them once heated, this is not always as true (and regulations vary a bit), but if we are talking about food prep/salad/you name it, they are all safe.
Heat wise, if we are talking about using it in boiling water to stir something, most finishes would be fine from a safety standpoint (not all can withstand this though).
As a general rule of thumb, if you aren't heating the wood above 200F, you aren't really going to get a finishes to release toxic fumes[1]
Second, as for solvents - smell is not everything. The HDI he mentions rubio having will not smell like anything until the concentration is way way way way too high. If you can smell it, you are in trouble. HDI is also much more dangerous than most solvents[2].
The oil is also a solvent.
Solvents are just things that you can dissolve something else in.
If they want to avoid certain types of solvents for some reason, that should be about safety or something, and if they want to evaluate that, smell is probably the wrong evaluation criteria.
To give one example of solvent elimination with a purpose, let's take VOC's, which are about pollution[3].
Avoiding VOC solvents makes for cleaner air, but again, VOC compliant/exempt/etc solvents vary wildly in whether they are safer for people or not than non-VOC exempt solvents.
If you are trying instead to avoid human-toxic solvents, you would choose a different set, etc.
[1] There are so many finishes with so many different properties that i can't 100% guarantee this, but non-professional stuff you can buy at a woodworking store or a big box store is going to be fine
[2] The lack of smell of isocyanate's is main the reason you can get service life indicating respirator catridges from 3m/et al - otherwise you would not be able to determine if your cartridge is working or not, since you would not smell it when spray finishing/etc until the concentration is way too high, even if your cartridge is spent. Sane folks just use supplied air anyway, rather than risk it at all.
[3] not safety to humans, though often highly confused with being safer.
I expect most would count baking and candy making among "food prep." the latter of which routinely reaches temperatures around 200-300°F. If stirring a mixture of boiling sugar for 20 minutes at 230°F exceeds the expected food-safety threshold, it seems like there shouldn't be as casual a usage of terms as this:
> If you are using them once heated, this is not always as true (and regulations vary a bit), but if we are talking about food prep/salad/you name it, they are all safe.
I've been using Osmo oils. This top oil and also their butcher block. Besides what they say that it is food safe, would this be fine for utensils which may get exposure to cooking temperatures ? Whether mixing soup or stir fry ?
Honestly I just use the utensils unfinished. They work fine and survive dishwashing fine. I still have over 20 years old cooking spoons that go through this kind of abuse.
"Sane folks just use supplied air anyway, rather than risk it at all."
For small one-time projects it's generally fine to just use a brand new filter and toss it afterwards. Hobbyists painting a car panel aren't using supplied air.
- most finishes are indeed "food safe after curing", I'm aware of that. How they look on wood, how they perform when being dipped in hot soup or when drinking hot liquids from them, that's harder to assess without buying cans of finish that I have to store forever if I don't like them.
- HDI doesn't smell indeed, I never said it did. In fact two-component hardwax oils would have been perfect if it was easier to mix and apply in small quantities. Unfortunately for the few drops of oil I need on a spoon, it's too messy
- I'm talking about solvents in the definition that most consumers know about them: volatile solvents that usually smell strongly. I used low-VOC solvent-based finishes and they still smell. Organic components aren't the only smelly things in solvents, and I simply can't stand them anymore, that's all. It's not all about the dangers, it's for my own comfort.
If you can point me to a solvent-based hardwax oil that smells of only the oils and waxes inside, I'll buy it in a pinch and forget about melting waxes in my microwave. Google search doesn't help here, I need to hear it from someone with experience
> Some carvers use urushi lacquer which is the sap from a tree common to Japan.
Urushi is the name of the Japanese tree, Toxicodendron verniciflua (the genus formerly was named Rhus), and of the lacquer of which its sap is the main constituent.
The lacquer is also called urushiol (note, not urushoil), which is also the resinous substance found in other members of the Toxicodendron genus: T. radicans and T. rydbergii, or poison ivy; T. diversilobum and T. pubescens, poison oak; and T. vernix, poison sumac. The resinous oil is what causes allergic reactions.
Which finally gets to my point: What are the allergic affects of the tree, its raw sap, the liquid lacquer, and maybe for hypersenstive/reactive urushiol allergies, the finished lacquer?
I don't meant to be alarmist - people have been eating off urushi lacquer for centuries. I'm thinking more about working with it.
EDIT: For those interested in the scientific aspects of the resin, plants, and allergic reaction:
Aaron C. Gladman MD. Toxicodendron Dermatitis: Poison Ivy, Oak, and Sumac. Wilderness & Environmental Medicine vol 17 #2 (June 2006)
> Which finally gets to my point: What are the allergic affects of the tree, its raw sap, the liquid lacquer, and maybe for hypersenstive/reactive urushiol allergies, the finished lacquer?
The Wood Database can be a useful practical site for this sort of thing. I found [0], a page for a different wood which is said to contain the same allergen:
> The sap contains urushiol (the same allergen found in Poison Ivy), and can still be irritating to some sensitized individuals even after the wood has been dried, and sap can also seep through some wood finishes to the surface of the wood.
Same as poison ivy? Count me out if true: I react badly.
> What are the allergic affects of the tree, its raw sap, the liquid lacquer, and maybe for hypersenstive/reactive urushiol allergies, the finished lacquer?
Essentially the same as for any other urushiol.
I'm highly sensitive and had to ask my partner not to get into kintsugi with the traditional lacquers because even the tiniest spot of urushiol and I will be considering a trip to the burn unit.
I've gotten a very mild reaction from ~century old lacquerware but I wouldn't expect that to be common, once it's fully cured. And just because it's mild doesn't mean it's any less itchy, trust me.
> What are the allergic affects of the tree, its raw sap, the liquid lacquer, and maybe for hypersenstive/reactive urushiol allergies, the finished lacquer?
Answering my own question, based on reading my own source more carefully (Gladman 2006 p.122):
The Japanese urushi tree, T. verniciflua, is among "plants containing uroshiol cross-reacting chemicals", which are described as follows (note that genus Toxicodendron is in family Anacardiaceae):
"Similar compounds found in other members of the Anacardiaceae family, as well as in several non-Anacardiaceae plants, can lead to cross-reactions and to an identical clinical picture (Table 2). However, dermatitis induced by these cross-reactors is rare compared with the frequency of dermatitis from Toxicodendron species. The allergens in the non-Toxicodendron plants listed in Table 2 are generally noncatechol phenols and resorcinols, and not the highly allergenic catechols in poison ivy, oak, and sumac. The hypothesis that early skin exposure to catechols may allow cross-reaction to other Anacardiaceae, whereas early oral exposure to phenols and resorcinols may induce tolerance, has been expressed."
Regarding the chemical composition, urushiol (in poison ivy/oak/sumac): "is a mixture of 3-n-pentadecylcatechols, which contain a catechol ring moiety substituted with different aliphatic side chains at position 3 or 4."
Some people react very badly, some are immune. But to be honest I just don't like my spoons and cups to look lacquered and I don't prefer the process of application.
Nothing wrong with that though, I like reading and watching people do the process and seeing them enjoy the calmness in doing dozens of layers over multiple days. Some end up with very beautiful shimmery brown wooden pieces [0] and I would love to own some of them. It's just not my style.
If you're interested in Urushi, here's an account from an artist who went to Japan to learn how to work with it - https://garlandmag.com/lacquer-god/
"Essentially a concentrated form of poison ivy, uncured lacquer causes blistering rashes which cause its sufferer almost unbearable itch and many sleepless nights. Building tolerance typically takes up to two years and has students living in constant fear of the very material they eventually hope to use on a daily basis."
As a child, my grandmother once accidentally used a poison oak stem to roast a hotdog over a campfire. She hadn't cooked it hot enough to denature the oil, and she reacted to it internally, which required a hospital visit.
Granted, consuming it is the worst-case scenario, but exposure to those oils can be life threatening.
> There’s also Rubio Monocoat and other two-component hardwax oils where the base component is usually a solvent-free blend of drying oils and waxes, and the accelerator component is Hexamethylene diisocyanate or HDI. The base component can cure on its own in about 3 weeks and the accelerator shortens the curing time to less than a day.
I find it bizarre that these finishes market the HDI component as an “accelerator”. It seems quite clearly to be a crosslinking agent — it’s a longish molecule with a rather reactive isocyanate group at either end. If you mix it with things it can react with, which likely includes both some waxes (those with hydroxyl groups) and some of the modified oils in “hardwax” oil, it will turn them into something akin to polyurethane.
Rubio Monocoat will cure into a different substance with the “accelerator” added than without it. In either case, it cures quite slowly and IMO has a nasty, penetrating chemical smell for weeks. I like how it looks, but the finish is not as stain resistant as many other options are, with or without the HDI.
P.S. the SDSes and some common sense suggest that this stuff is actually HDI oligomers, not plain HDI. The oligomers are rather less nasty.
P.P.S. Isocyanates are, AIUI, not persistently nasty, as they are too reactive. They react with water to form amines, and unreacted isocyanates will react with the amines to form polyurea, which is reasonably inert.
P.P.P.S. The “molecular bonding” stuff that Rubio talks about seems to be nonsense. The part A + part B mix will cure into a fairly hard and tough plasticky substance even if it’s a millimeter or two thick. Don’t do that — it’s not so easy to get the resulting mess off of whatever surface it cured on!
Author here! Since the article publishing, I have found a widely available finish that's very similar to what I'm doing called Walrus Oil Furniture Butter: https://walrusoil.com/products/furniture-butter
It's still a combination of polymerizing oils, hard waxes and resin, it's just different plants (linseed instead of tung, pine resin instead of damar etc.) Again, no solvents, people say it smells good.
I still have way too much tung oil, wax and resin around because I could only buy high quantities, so I guess I'll keep using my own finish for a long while. But I'd love to hear from others how the Furniture Butter fares for wooden spoons and cups.
This is an interesting article, though I wish they had relaxed some of the requirements. Demanding something that both cures fast and is free of solvents seems unnecessarily specific. For hobby projects finishing on a tight deadline is usually not a high priority so longer cure times are an acceptable tradeoff. For larger scale or business oriented projects the use of a solvent can be fine because proper VOC protective gear is not that expensive.
Even for hobby work it’s not hard to get reasonable VOC protective gear or establish a fume extraction hood out of some cardboard and a cheap box fan next to a window in the shop space.
The author of the article has a woodworking business (linked on the bottom of their homepage: https://gospodaria.com/). So they do need fast turnaround times for profitability.
However, as they mention, they do this work from home, and they don't really have a good setup for VOC protection. From the article:
> In the winter months I carve indoors and have to finish the pieces indoors as well, and the horrible solvent smell fills my house for a whole day.
A jury-rigged fume hood will work if you're doing one item at a time, but it doesn't work if you're doing work in batches.
(I get the impression that the best next step for the author, would be to consider building themselves a humidity-controlled drying shed, which would live at least a few feet from their building's air envelope. Doesn't need to be anything fancy; build an ordinary shed, and then get the small-space HVAC equipment from e.g. a marijuana grow-tent supplier.)
I always wondered whether the wooden spatulas and spoons they sell at IKEA are safe to use. I never know what that wood was treated with or coated with.
Perhaps I’m naive, but buying from an IKEA (in Norway) or another big store feels less risky than buying something handmade.
Several people are involved in making every product at IKEA. At least one of them must be an expert in compliance. They can expect scrutiny and product recalls, fines and bad sales if they’re found out.
The one person making the hand-made spoon does not necessarily know all the environmental regulations that should be followed.
They are raw wood, unfinished. I usually give them a little sanding and a layer of beeswax - doesn't last very long but makes them feel new for a while :)
Well unless you are getting solid wood utensils (much more $$ and most aren’t) then you are starting with bamboo glued together with adhesives. So at that point if you are worried about the finish I’d be worried about the glues as well
I get solid wood (olive wood or other woods ) tools and I don’t finish them. But if I did I might just use beeswax
I use wood only for my non-stick pans. Metal for the metal pans. I sometime put some olive oil on the utensils, but generally, I just use them, put them in the dishwasher, repeat, until they break. They are ~50 cents at Ikea. And so I don't eat any plastics anymore.
Of course, the article is about high end stuff, but I just want to put everything in the dishwasher. Which I presume you can't do with even the best coated high end utensils?
We also switched to wooden Cutting boards, I find them to be pretty annoying as they really go bad fast in the dishwasher and can be quite expensive. We just wash them with boiling water, a bit of soap every now and then.
Seems a little extreme to pour boiling water on wooden cutting boards to clean? Do you live in really cold and snowy place without much access to sunlight hours? Just washing them with soap and drying them in sunlight is all we do and it’s been good. We also don’t cut meat on the wooden board. I would use hot water if it were meat on the board.
If you use the appropriate wood, you can wet and sand many times to get a smooth finish. You can burnish it (rub with hard metal) to close the surface well. But it will still stain and absorb smells, just to a lessor extent. You'll notice if you use the same spoon for coffee and tea, or the same spoon for curry and miso soup.
I don't have a problem. if they get a little funky I just sand them down. and let them soak in food-grade mineral oil for a while. same with cutting boards and butcher block tables.
When the wood fibers get wet they swell and become soft. When soft, the surface will be very sensitive to damage. Fibers on the surface will raise and then not return to their original position, causing surface roughness. Repeated cycles of wet/dry will cause cracks.
Great blog post. I like the emd look of the experimental finish.
Couple of years back I went to all wooden spoons in the kitchen. My all time favourite is the most traditional of all: boxwood. This is what wooden utensils are made in my home country for centuries. It's light but dense, hard, and durable. It doesn't absorb color or smells easily as other hardwood. Beautiful too!
What does that mean? It's tough enough that you can make it thinner? It dries out more fully? Or does "dense" refer to something other than density, like tightness of the grain?
Alin (OP), what a wonderful article. I've had the same problem and had given up experimenting for similar reasons to you. I'm now thinking to finish the cup I've half carved and have sitting on the shelf in the shed. Thanks!
Your shop looks great too. Others might enjoy folowing the link buried towards the bottom of the article.
Thank you for the kind words! Do try to finish your cup, it's a great experience both to drink from something made by your hands, and to drink from a wooden cup if it's finished well.
Make sure you do water popping after finishing the carving and sanding process. It's what makes the difference between wood that catches your lips and wood that feels like ceramic. The process is simple: sand with 600 or 400 grit, whichever you have, then get all the wood wet with water (faucet is fine), let dry completely (hairdryer helps), sand again with 600/400 grit and repeat about 3 times until wetting the wood no longer makes it feel rough.
Kids toys, wooden kitchen utensils etc. are to be sanded and used coating free. If you really need to close off the pores, burnish the surface.
Burnishing for spatulas for example can be done on a drill press. Just use a smooth rounded end steel bar and a low speed on the drill. You’ll have the concave part done in minutes. For the handle and convex part it’s usually easiest to burnish with a smooth steel rod and move the piece along the side. I can get my hard maple spatula burnished in under 15 minutes.
If you really want to keep the fibers from rising a lot post burnishing- water pop the wood, sand with 220, slightly dampen the wood again and then burnish.
I haven’t tried this but apparently you can automate the burnishing by using antlers/smooth stones in a rock tumbler.
I make wooden cups. I use water-based polyurethane out of a spray can to waterproof the interiors. I find it a lot easier to use than epoxy in almost every aspect.
For the exterior and for cutting boards, I use a hard wax oil I make from linseed oil and beeswax. It's easy to prepare and I usually provide a small cup of it to whomever I'm gifting the cutting board.
I reuse small, glass jelly jars with screw-on metal lids, about 1/2 a cup in size. You do need to leave a layer of water on top, though, because otherwise the top layer will polymerize and leave a rubbery layer you have to remove the next time you use it.
The timing of this is sort of uncanny as it's been on my mind a lot lately.
Generally I use a beeswax and mineral oil finish, sometimes this other product I can't remember the name of made from flax oil.
I've been wondering why jojoba oil doesn't get mentioned more in these discussions, either in combination with something else or on its own? It's a wax but liquid at room temperature, and seems to be stable for a long long time, long enough at least that it would probably need some refinishing before it might go bad.
The problem with jojoba oil is that it doesn't polymerize or cure. It stays wet in the fibers. Nothing bad with that on wood that doesn't contact hot food and beverages.
But if you put wood treated with non-polymerized oil in a hot soup or if you pour hot tea into a cup finished with jojoba oil, the oil will get out of the fibers and into your hot liquid, the fiber will raise and the wood will start to feel rough after a few uses and start to get stained from your food and beverage.
Osmo Polyx is what I already had around from other wooden furniture projects, that's all. I try to not store too many cans of unused finishes around my house so I try to use what I already have first.
Top Oil indeed seems very similar to what I did (hardwax, drying oils, driers) but half of it is still white spirit solvent, which I'm guessing will give it the same smell as Polyx.
Team tung oil here. Wooden-handled knives and wooden utensils get a light coat and left outside on a nice day. Repeat for 3-5 days and you're good for at least a year or two, depending on how you treat the items. The coating needs to be light else you get a shellac/lacquer finish. I use Walrus brand, pure tung oil.
I finished a bunch of cutlery handles with tung oil a bunch of years ago. I easily found a bottle of it at Lee Valley Tools. It was the polymerized type, which dried pretty quickly, comparable to oil paint or varnish. The finish was prety glossy. I just used a paper towel to apply several thin coats.
Can't a spatula be just untreated wood? Or some very light oiling just to reduce the absorption of food. And then solve the problem by disposing of them fairly often. They make a lot of heat in the fireplace since they've absorbed so much fat...
Taking the advice of a pro at my local makerspace, I finished a cutting board with filtered ghee. Has been great so far without turning rancid as i thought it might
Dude already found the perfect thing, but wanted an excuse to play with random metallic driers and resins instead. Fine, but don't pretend it was necessary.
But it’s really hard to mix properly and apply on small wooden objects like spoons and cups. I almost always use too much accelerator,
Just use a precision scale. Pharmacists give me side-eye when I mention cutting my medicine. No, I do small-scale epoxy mixing!
Author here, it's not that it's not possible, it's just annoying to do. Indeed, two-component hardwax oils are close to perfect (although the resulting polymer is not ideal), but having to do the precise pouring and mixing, and trying to smear that thick blend onto the wood, hundreds and hundreds of times, is not something I want to do.
I want to enjoy the process of making the wooden utensil as much as I want to see the end result, hence my excuse to play with random metallic driers and resins.
I have only used Rubio once and didn't bother with accelerant at all. For my use case it worked out fine.
Although it's the only time I've done any sort of wood finishing so take it with a grain of salt.
Interesting, I'll have to give that a detailed read later. It might be applicable to 3D prints.
To head off the people who will jump up-and-down calling me paranoid for not considering untreated printed works food safe, and accusing me of accusing them of poisoning family & friends (in some circles the discussion can get more cantankerous than the vi/emacs thing!): you keep using printed things for food without treatment if you like, and I won't judge, but I prefer to remain paranoid because if printed items were food safe it would be a selling point and I don't see any manufacturers using food based examples in their advertising.
> To head off the people who will jump up-and-down calling me paranoid for not considering untreated printed works food safe,
I’ve been involved with consumer 3D printing for over a decade and I don’t recall ever seeing a conversation where anyone suggested 3D printer parts were default food safe. It’s one of the more common FAQs you see on 3D printing forums.
robhlam|2 months ago
alin23|2 months ago
I prefer to keep the original color of the wood I sell, so lower temperatures are better for me, but I like the look of toasted wood as well.
My problem with just oil is that the finish is very matte, hence the wax and resin complication I'm going through in the article. But matte is also a look that people look for so there's no problem in that, it's just my personal preference and style that's different.
IgorPartola|2 months ago
I honestly do not know because while I have read that specifically boiled linseed oil does cure to be safe it was not clear to me whether it was safe for skin contact or fully food safe and food safe isn’t the same thing as safe for e.g. stirring pasta as it boils or stirring food that is frying in oil.
speakspokespok|2 months ago
FaradayRotation|2 months ago
userbinator|2 months ago
Highly-refined mineral oil is food-safe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil#Food_preparation
Why even use wood if you’re going to cover it in a layer of clear plastic?
I find it amusing that those who will use wood or "natural" (petroleum is also naturally occurring...) products for some sort of weird misguided eco-virtue-signaling, inevitably end up needing to basically reinvent the chemistry of finding an inert, durable material that brought us modern plastics. All these drying oils create a layer of polymerised material, which can be classed as plastic anyway. Waxes, regardless of source, attribute their properties to long hydrocarbon chains, just like polyethylene.
alin23|2 months ago
I'm of the same opinion as you, drying oil polymers are still plastic, it's just that their method of curing makes them look better on wood, most likely because of the very thin layer that remains at the surface, but also because of the polymer surface texture.
Every epoxy resin, even the more penetrant ones, end up looking like plastic on wood, not sure how else to describe it.
But in terms of chemistry, food safety and how inert they are, they are indistinguishable.
I'm also aware mineral oil is food safe, I was trying to say that it will leak into the hot food and not stay in the wood fibers, which renders the finish useless after just one use.
abdullahkhalids|2 months ago
levocardia|2 months ago
unknown|2 months ago
[deleted]
techsystems|2 months ago
No, that is absolutely not the case.
dekhn|2 months ago
samirillian|2 months ago
DannyBee|2 months ago
kleiba|2 months ago
And the reason is exactly the finish. Metal and plastic spoons, forks, lids, etc. are nice and smooth and don't get in your way. Cheaply made wood or cardboards ones are rough and tacky.
Of course you could argue that from an environmental standpoint, that's not a bug but a feature: now I'm using even less disposable stuff (first, no plastic because it's been replaced by other stuff; and second also the replacements because I hate using them).
inportb|2 months ago
spankalee|2 months ago
alin23|2 months ago
My spoons and cups feel more like warm textured ceramic. They are sanded to a high 600 grit, water popped multiple times to make sure the grain doesn't raise and the texture stays smooth, and finished with drying oils as you see in the article to keep the surface highly hydrophobic.
I really can't describe it in words, but everyone I know who tried eating with my wooden spoons and drank from my coffee cups, was pleasantly surprised of the feeling.
That's why most of my sales happen in person at local craft markets, because there, people can take the cup into their hand, they can feel the smoothness, and they can ask about the same things you are worried about.
All I can recommend is find a spoon carver in your area, or one that ships there, and try a hand carved eating spoon. I'm not saying it's better than metal, ceramic or plastic, it's just a different experience that some people enjoy.
montymintypie|2 months ago
ezekg|2 months ago
hfbdbrbr|2 months ago
[deleted]
fanatic2pope|2 months ago
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2024/10/10/the-best-food-saf...
bigstrat2003|2 months ago
levocardia|2 months ago
(...no links provided). Really? "Studies show" you don't need to use soap to rinse off the wooden cutting board you just chopped up raw chicken on? Without a citation there I'm extremely skeptical
justincormack|2 months ago
DannyBee|2 months ago
This is very confused.
First, all wood finishes you can buy are food-safe once cured. They aren't allowed to be sold otherwise, at least in the US/Europe/et al.
If you are using them once heated, this is not always as true (and regulations vary a bit), but if we are talking about food prep/salad/you name it, they are all safe.
Heat wise, if we are talking about using it in boiling water to stir something, most finishes would be fine from a safety standpoint (not all can withstand this though).
As a general rule of thumb, if you aren't heating the wood above 200F, you aren't really going to get a finishes to release toxic fumes[1]
Second, as for solvents - smell is not everything. The HDI he mentions rubio having will not smell like anything until the concentration is way way way way too high. If you can smell it, you are in trouble. HDI is also much more dangerous than most solvents[2].
The oil is also a solvent.
Solvents are just things that you can dissolve something else in.
If they want to avoid certain types of solvents for some reason, that should be about safety or something, and if they want to evaluate that, smell is probably the wrong evaluation criteria.
To give one example of solvent elimination with a purpose, let's take VOC's, which are about pollution[3].
Avoiding VOC solvents makes for cleaner air, but again, VOC compliant/exempt/etc solvents vary wildly in whether they are safer for people or not than non-VOC exempt solvents.
If you are trying instead to avoid human-toxic solvents, you would choose a different set, etc.
[1] There are so many finishes with so many different properties that i can't 100% guarantee this, but non-professional stuff you can buy at a woodworking store or a big box store is going to be fine
[2] The lack of smell of isocyanate's is main the reason you can get service life indicating respirator catridges from 3m/et al - otherwise you would not be able to determine if your cartridge is working or not, since you would not smell it when spray finishing/etc until the concentration is way too high, even if your cartridge is spent. Sane folks just use supplied air anyway, rather than risk it at all.
[3] not safety to humans, though often highly confused with being safer.
opello|2 months ago
> If you are using them once heated, this is not always as true (and regulations vary a bit), but if we are talking about food prep/salad/you name it, they are all safe.
wildmXranat|2 months ago
https://osmo.ca/product/topoil-high-solid/
foobarian|2 months ago
coryrc|2 months ago
Standard BLO is not food-safe and is sold everywhere.
giantg2|2 months ago
For small one-time projects it's generally fine to just use a brand new filter and toss it afterwards. Hobbyists painting a car panel aren't using supplied air.
alin23|2 months ago
- most finishes are indeed "food safe after curing", I'm aware of that. How they look on wood, how they perform when being dipped in hot soup or when drinking hot liquids from them, that's harder to assess without buying cans of finish that I have to store forever if I don't like them.
- HDI doesn't smell indeed, I never said it did. In fact two-component hardwax oils would have been perfect if it was easier to mix and apply in small quantities. Unfortunately for the few drops of oil I need on a spoon, it's too messy
- I'm talking about solvents in the definition that most consumers know about them: volatile solvents that usually smell strongly. I used low-VOC solvent-based finishes and they still smell. Organic components aren't the only smelly things in solvents, and I simply can't stand them anymore, that's all. It's not all about the dangers, it's for my own comfort.
If you can point me to a solvent-based hardwax oil that smells of only the oils and waxes inside, I'll buy it in a pinch and forget about melting waxes in my microwave. Google search doesn't help here, I need to hear it from someone with experience
energy123|2 months ago
mmooss|2 months ago
Urushi is the name of the Japanese tree, Toxicodendron verniciflua (the genus formerly was named Rhus), and of the lacquer of which its sap is the main constituent.
The lacquer is also called urushiol (note, not urushoil), which is also the resinous substance found in other members of the Toxicodendron genus: T. radicans and T. rydbergii, or poison ivy; T. diversilobum and T. pubescens, poison oak; and T. vernix, poison sumac. The resinous oil is what causes allergic reactions.
Which finally gets to my point: What are the allergic affects of the tree, its raw sap, the liquid lacquer, and maybe for hypersenstive/reactive urushiol allergies, the finished lacquer?
I don't meant to be alarmist - people have been eating off urushi lacquer for centuries. I'm thinking more about working with it.
EDIT: For those interested in the scientific aspects of the resin, plants, and allergic reaction:
Aaron C. Gladman MD. Toxicodendron Dermatitis: Poison Ivy, Oak, and Sumac. Wilderness & Environmental Medicine vol 17 #2 (June 2006)
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1580/pr31-05.1
esquivalience|2 months ago
The Wood Database can be a useful practical site for this sort of thing. I found [0], a page for a different wood which is said to contain the same allergen:
> The sap contains urushiol (the same allergen found in Poison Ivy), and can still be irritating to some sensitized individuals even after the wood has been dried, and sap can also seep through some wood finishes to the surface of the wood.
Same as poison ivy? Count me out if true: I react badly.
[0] https://www.wood-database.com/rengas/
jaggederest|2 months ago
Essentially the same as for any other urushiol.
I'm highly sensitive and had to ask my partner not to get into kintsugi with the traditional lacquers because even the tiniest spot of urushiol and I will be considering a trip to the burn unit.
I've gotten a very mild reaction from ~century old lacquerware but I wouldn't expect that to be common, once it's fully cured. And just because it's mild doesn't mean it's any less itchy, trust me.
mmooss|2 months ago
Answering my own question, based on reading my own source more carefully (Gladman 2006 p.122):
The Japanese urushi tree, T. verniciflua, is among "plants containing uroshiol cross-reacting chemicals", which are described as follows (note that genus Toxicodendron is in family Anacardiaceae):
"Similar compounds found in other members of the Anacardiaceae family, as well as in several non-Anacardiaceae plants, can lead to cross-reactions and to an identical clinical picture (Table 2). However, dermatitis induced by these cross-reactors is rare compared with the frequency of dermatitis from Toxicodendron species. The allergens in the non-Toxicodendron plants listed in Table 2 are generally noncatechol phenols and resorcinols, and not the highly allergenic catechols in poison ivy, oak, and sumac. The hypothesis that early skin exposure to catechols may allow cross-reaction to other Anacardiaceae, whereas early oral exposure to phenols and resorcinols may induce tolerance, has been expressed."
Regarding the chemical composition, urushiol (in poison ivy/oak/sumac): "is a mixture of 3-n-pentadecylcatechols, which contain a catechol ring moiety substituted with different aliphatic side chains at position 3 or 4."
alin23|2 months ago
Nothing wrong with that though, I like reading and watching people do the process and seeing them enjoy the calmness in doing dozens of layers over multiple days. Some end up with very beautiful shimmery brown wooden pieces [0] and I would love to own some of them. It's just not my style.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/j1YHhsHZOGk
mwu|2 months ago
"Essentially a concentrated form of poison ivy, uncured lacquer causes blistering rashes which cause its sufferer almost unbearable itch and many sleepless nights. Building tolerance typically takes up to two years and has students living in constant fear of the very material they eventually hope to use on a daily basis."
dlcarrier|2 months ago
Granted, consuming it is the worst-case scenario, but exposure to those oils can be life threatening.
amluto|2 months ago
I find it bizarre that these finishes market the HDI component as an “accelerator”. It seems quite clearly to be a crosslinking agent — it’s a longish molecule with a rather reactive isocyanate group at either end. If you mix it with things it can react with, which likely includes both some waxes (those with hydroxyl groups) and some of the modified oils in “hardwax” oil, it will turn them into something akin to polyurethane.
Rubio Monocoat will cure into a different substance with the “accelerator” added than without it. In either case, it cures quite slowly and IMO has a nasty, penetrating chemical smell for weeks. I like how it looks, but the finish is not as stain resistant as many other options are, with or without the HDI.
P.S. the SDSes and some common sense suggest that this stuff is actually HDI oligomers, not plain HDI. The oligomers are rather less nasty.
P.P.S. Isocyanates are, AIUI, not persistently nasty, as they are too reactive. They react with water to form amines, and unreacted isocyanates will react with the amines to form polyurea, which is reasonably inert.
P.P.P.S. The “molecular bonding” stuff that Rubio talks about seems to be nonsense. The part A + part B mix will cure into a fairly hard and tough plasticky substance even if it’s a millimeter or two thick. Don’t do that — it’s not so easy to get the resulting mess off of whatever surface it cured on!
alin23|2 months ago
It's still a combination of polymerizing oils, hard waxes and resin, it's just different plants (linseed instead of tung, pine resin instead of damar etc.) Again, no solvents, people say it smells good.
I still have way too much tung oil, wax and resin around because I could only buy high quantities, so I guess I'll keep using my own finish for a long while. But I'd love to hear from others how the Furniture Butter fares for wooden spoons and cups.
spott|2 months ago
I throw it in a bag and vacuum seal the spoon (with tung oil) for a day or two, then remove, wipe, and let cure for a month.
The resulting finish is largely dishwasher safe for a year or so before I have to reapply. Without the vacuum sealing stage, it doesn’t last as long.
Aurornis|2 months ago
Even for hobby work it’s not hard to get reasonable VOC protective gear or establish a fume extraction hood out of some cardboard and a cheap box fan next to a window in the shop space.
derefr|2 months ago
However, as they mention, they do this work from home, and they don't really have a good setup for VOC protection. From the article:
> In the winter months I carve indoors and have to finish the pieces indoors as well, and the horrible solvent smell fills my house for a whole day.
A jury-rigged fume hood will work if you're doing one item at a time, but it doesn't work if you're doing work in batches.
(I get the impression that the best next step for the author, would be to consider building themselves a humidity-controlled drying shed, which would live at least a few feet from their building's air envelope. Doesn't need to be anything fancy; build an ordinary shed, and then get the small-space HVAC equipment from e.g. a marijuana grow-tent supplier.)
zkmon|2 months ago
vages|2 months ago
Several people are involved in making every product at IKEA. At least one of them must be an expert in compliance. They can expect scrutiny and product recalls, fines and bad sales if they’re found out.
The one person making the hand-made spoon does not necessarily know all the environmental regulations that should be followed.
ricardobeat|2 months ago
hammock|2 months ago
I get solid wood (olive wood or other woods ) tools and I don’t finish them. But if I did I might just use beeswax
mbrock|2 months ago
teekert|2 months ago
Of course, the article is about high end stuff, but I just want to put everything in the dishwasher. Which I presume you can't do with even the best coated high end utensils?
We also switched to wooden Cutting boards, I find them to be pretty annoying as they really go bad fast in the dishwasher and can be quite expensive. We just wash them with boiling water, a bit of soap every now and then.
tecoholic|2 months ago
carlosjobim|2 months ago
Never use boiling water. Use warm water and a little bit of soap.
Dumblydorr|2 months ago
coryrc|2 months ago
convolvatron|2 months ago
awestroke|2 months ago
esperent|2 months ago
bgnn|2 months ago
Couple of years back I went to all wooden spoons in the kitchen. My all time favourite is the most traditional of all: boxwood. This is what wooden utensils are made in my home country for centuries. It's light but dense, hard, and durable. It doesn't absorb color or smells easily as other hardwood. Beautiful too!
sfink|2 months ago
What does that mean? It's tough enough that you can make it thinner? It dries out more fully? Or does "dense" refer to something other than density, like tightness of the grain?
esquivalience|2 months ago
Your shop looks great too. Others might enjoy folowing the link buried towards the bottom of the article.
alin23|2 months ago
Make sure you do water popping after finishing the carving and sanding process. It's what makes the difference between wood that catches your lips and wood that feels like ceramic. The process is simple: sand with 600 or 400 grit, whichever you have, then get all the wood wet with water (faucet is fine), let dry completely (hairdryer helps), sand again with 600/400 grit and repeat about 3 times until wetting the wood no longer makes it feel rough.
dyauspitr|2 months ago
Burnishing for spatulas for example can be done on a drill press. Just use a smooth rounded end steel bar and a low speed on the drill. You’ll have the concave part done in minutes. For the handle and convex part it’s usually easiest to burnish with a smooth steel rod and move the piece along the side. I can get my hard maple spatula burnished in under 15 minutes.
If you really want to keep the fibers from rising a lot post burnishing- water pop the wood, sand with 220, slightly dampen the wood again and then burnish.
I haven’t tried this but apparently you can automate the burnishing by using antlers/smooth stones in a rock tumbler.
moron4hire|2 months ago
For the exterior and for cutting boards, I use a hard wax oil I make from linseed oil and beeswax. It's easy to prepare and I usually provide a small cup of it to whomever I'm gifting the cutting board.
I reuse small, glass jelly jars with screw-on metal lids, about 1/2 a cup in size. You do need to leave a layer of water on top, though, because otherwise the top layer will polymerize and leave a rubbery layer you have to remove the next time you use it.
derbOac|2 months ago
Generally I use a beeswax and mineral oil finish, sometimes this other product I can't remember the name of made from flax oil.
I've been wondering why jojoba oil doesn't get mentioned more in these discussions, either in combination with something else or on its own? It's a wax but liquid at room temperature, and seems to be stable for a long long time, long enough at least that it would probably need some refinishing before it might go bad.
alin23|2 months ago
But if you put wood treated with non-polymerized oil in a hot soup or if you pour hot tea into a cup finished with jojoba oil, the oil will get out of the fibers and into your hot liquid, the fiber will raise and the wood will start to feel rough after a few uses and start to get stained from your food and beverage.
jmkd|2 months ago
alin23|2 months ago
Top Oil indeed seems very similar to what I did (hardwax, drying oils, driers) but half of it is still white spirit solvent, which I'm guessing will give it the same smell as Polyx.
The closest thing I found to what I want is Walrus Oil Furniture Butter (https://walrusoil.com/products/furniture-butter) but I didn't know about it at the time.
chickensong|2 months ago
unknown|2 months ago
[deleted]
kazinator|2 months ago
Gravityloss|2 months ago
Spooky23|2 months ago
Wood is great for serving spoons, I have some fancy French ones, you just never dishwash and every few months wipe down with grapeseed or canola oil.
For eating? Wood just is not a good material.
fromaj|2 months ago
adrian_b|2 months ago
FpUser|2 months ago
jasonthorsness|2 months ago
dwd|2 months ago
chias|2 months ago
unknown|2 months ago
[deleted]
ErroneousBosh|2 months ago
coryrc|2 months ago
alin23|2 months ago
I want to enjoy the process of making the wooden utensil as much as I want to see the end result, hence my excuse to play with random metallic driers and resins.
Rebelgecko|2 months ago
kurthr|2 months ago
_ZeD_|2 months ago
alin23|2 months ago
bythreads|2 months ago
Works well for me
dspillett|2 months ago
To head off the people who will jump up-and-down calling me paranoid for not considering untreated printed works food safe, and accusing me of accusing them of poisoning family & friends (in some circles the discussion can get more cantankerous than the vi/emacs thing!): you keep using printed things for food without treatment if you like, and I won't judge, but I prefer to remain paranoid because if printed items were food safe it would be a selling point and I don't see any manufacturers using food based examples in their advertising.
Aurornis|2 months ago
I’ve been involved with consumer 3D printing for over a decade and I don’t recall ever seeing a conversation where anyone suggested 3D printer parts were default food safe. It’s one of the more common FAQs you see on 3D printing forums.