[mathewsanders]

This makes me think of a tool from semiotics called the Greimas square where you can have opposing concepts e.g. A and B (ugly & beautiful, for & against, legal & illegal).

At the surface level they can appear as binaries, but the negation of A is not equivalent to B and vice versa (e.g. illegal is not equivalent to not-legal) and encourages the consideration of more complex meta-concepts which at surface level seem like contradictions but are not (both beautiful and ugly, neither for or against).

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Others have pointed out that English speakers do have the capacity, and do use these sort of double negatives that allow for this ambiguity and nuance, but if you are an English-only speaker, I do believe that there are concepts that are thick with meaning and the meaning cannot accurately be communicated through a translation - they come with a lot of contextual baggage where the meaning can not be communicated in words alone.

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As a New Zealander who's lived in the U.S. for the last 15 years, I've realized in conversations with some native Americans where despite sincere (I think) efforts on both sides, I've not been able to communicate what I mean. I don't think it's anything to do with intelligence, but like author hints how language shapes how we think and therefore our realities.

--

I've never found poetry to be interesting, but recently I've come to appreciate how I think poets attempt to bypass this flaw of language, and how good poets sometimes seem to succeed!

[FloorEgg]

I made my own top level comment below about the ambiguity of "I don't want x" and how hard it is in English to distinguish between "I have zero want for x" and "I have negative want for x"

I didn't know about semiotic square, and appreciate learning about it. It points at exactly the property that I keep tripping over (and seeing others trip over).

Given that wants are an expression of values, and understanding other people's values enables empathy, I can't help but think this flaw in language is actually inhibiting empathy and cooperation at larger scales.

[gsf_emergency_6]

Agreed. The flaw seems to be subtle though, a kinda sorta mismatch between intuition and deliberation (intent?) [0]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/314666472_The_Exact...

[0] by which I mean people prefer to use intuition when thinking on their own, but prefer others to be deliberate -- however inappropriate levels of intent also provokes suspicion?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s44271-025-00320-8

Personally, I feel that jokes have the potential to cut through all that (barriers to empathy)

[Izkata]

> and how hard it is in English to distinguish between "I have zero want for x" and "I have negative want for x"

"I do not want to X"

"I want to not X"

These are both pretty natural English constructions, though the second is usually used as a retort for clarification after saying the first but meaning the second.

[bonoboTP]

Related, that in English "must not" means that it's forbidden, while in German the analogous "muss nicht" just means "don't have to". Also "need not" means "don't need", instead of actually needing the negation.

[shunia_huang]

> I've not been able to communicate what I mean

As a native Chinese speaker that's always my confusion when communicate in English as I would feel that the word/phrasing can not express the meaning in my heart.

[faragon]

That's beautiful. E.g., I have Chinese coworkers and now I realize what they meant with "that's not wrong". I felt those expressions like humbleness, but now I realize they were trying to keep their authenticity. Mind blowing.

[turkishmonky]

I have found myself using "decent" frequently (especially in code comments) for situations that are technically ok, but far from perfect.

"Passable" is my go to for just below that.

Sometimes it's also interesting how gen-z lingo fills gaps - such as "that's a choice"

[gsf_emergency_6]

native Americans or Native Americans? the latter would be more like the Moriori and fit the context better, but somehow native English speakers who arent interlegible are also interesting.

[ethbr1]

Not foreign Americans

[popalchemist]

Western culture is predicated on a sort of positivist metaphysics, and our language reflects that. Whereas in the east, the langauges and cultures have both long ago (as in, thousands of years ago) assimilated the precepts of non-dualism, which brings with it a greater degree of subtlety, through its embedded understanding of equanimity, dependent arising, and so on. It's a different ontological root, and therefore a different schema altogether.

Knowing what I know of you guys in NZ, a lot of that sort of thinking has made its way into popular understanding by way of encounters with the Maori people, and some of it has to do with more modern notions of pluralism, and some of it has to do with British politeness.

All that to say, it is not your fault nor the Americans fault that there's a gap in understanding. It's the byproduct of where those two schemas do not connect.

[idiotsecant]

The idea that all non-western practices, language included, have a deep and amazing and metaphysical quality that westerners simply couldn't understand is so tiresome. No language is more expressive than another, some are more expressive for particular very specific things, like Inuit languages might be much better at describing the varieties of snow, but no language has a monopoly on describing dualism of ideas. It's just as silly to be overly dismissive of the language you're familiar with as it is to be overly dismissive of others.

[incr_me]

Ever read Plato?