top | item 46347108

I can't upgrade to Windows 11, now leave me alone

551 points| firefoxd | 2 months ago |idiallo.com

563 comments

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[+] linguae|2 months ago|reply
I miss the days when personal computers were simply tools, akin to pencils and handheld calculators. I remember the days of Macintosh System 7 and Windows 95. No upselling services. No automatic updates. No nagging. You turned your computer on, executed programs, and that was it.

On the Windows side, things started going downhill starting with the Windows XP era, and on the Mac the annoyances began sometime in the mid-2010s.

It seems Microsoft, Apple, and other companies realized that they’re leaving money on the table by not exploiting their platforms. Thus, they’re no longer selling simple tools, but rather they are selling us services.

Yes, there are good Linux distributions that don’t annoy me, and the BSDs never nag me, but the problem with switching to these platforms is that I still need Microsoft Office and other proprietary software tools that are not available outside “Big Tech.” There are other matters that make switching away from Windows and macOS challenging, such as hardware support and laptop battery life.

[+] isolatedsystem|2 months ago|reply
Easy answer to your last point: Work machine and Non-work machine. If I'm working for a company and the company needs MS Office, they will give me a machine with MS Office. I will treat that machine like a radioactive zone. Full Hazmat suit. Not a shred of personal interaction with that machine. It exists only to do work on and that's that. The company can take care of keeping it up to date, and the company's IT department can do the bending over the table on my behest as MS approaches with dildos marked "Copilot" or "Recall" or "Cortana" or "React Native Start Menu" or "OneDrive" or whatever.

Meanwhile, my personal machine continues to be Linux.

This is what I'm doing at my work now. I'm lucky enough to have two computers, a desktop PC that runs Linux, and a laptop with Windows 11. I do not use that laptop unless I have to deal with xlsx, pptx or docx files. Life is so much better.

[+] crazygringo|2 months ago|reply
> Windows 95. No upselling services. No automatic updates

Even Windows 95 came bundled with MSN on the desktop which had a paid monthly fee to access. And its lack of automatic updates was a real problem, as you had to manually find the service packs and security patches. The automatic updates in Windows XP were vastly more convenient.

Automatic updates are needed for security. The only era when you didn't need them was pre-Internet. They're not something we want to get rid of.

[+] tzs|2 months ago|reply
The internet was a big part of it. Most home users did not have internet access in the System 7 days. When it came out in 1991 no country had more than 1% of its population with internet access. By the time Windows 95 came out around 10% of US users had internet access.

It wasn't until 2001 that the US reached 50% of users having internet access.

Without internet there wasn't really a good way to distribute updates to most users.

As a developer in that era working at a company that made software for PCs and Macs it was great. It meant that the way most users would get our software was buying it on floppy disk (or later CD) from a retail software store like CompUSA or Egghead.

We'd only make more money from someone who bought our software if that software made a good enough impression that they bought more of our software. We'd lose money if any software went out with enough bugs or a confusing enough interface or a poorly enough written manual that a lot of people made a lot of calls to our toll free tech support.

This was great because it largely aligned what developers wanted to do (write a feature complete program with a great UI and no bugs) and what management wanted (happy users who do not call tech support).

With internet giving us the ability to push updates at almost zero cost and as often as we want people who release incomplete programs early and add the missing parts in updates are going to outcompete people who don't release until the program is complete and nearly bug free.

Once you get there it is not much of a leap to decide that what you are really selling is not software to do X but rather the service of providing software to do X. Customers subscribe to that service and you continuously improve its ability to do X.

[+] aspbee555|2 months ago|reply
I stopped using Windows over 15 years ago and moved to Ubuntu that was running all the servers. Unfortunately Ubuntu decided to do the same garbage trying to shove their pro crap down my throat, made it impossible to remove (by making a desktop requirement) and resorted to the game of trying to re-enable it during updates

I finally moved everything to just Debian itself that never nags me and just works with everything I need, including games (thanks to steam)

Only time I boot a Win10 VM is to compile apps for for windows, otherwise it has zero use or need anymore

[+] stouset|2 months ago|reply
I too remember the days when every unpatched Windows PC was a member of a botnet. Perhaps less fondly than you.

And thankfully this was before a time when everyone’s computers and phones had access to their bank accounts, credit cards, and before email was the gateway to virtually your entire life.

[+] Terr_|2 months ago|reply
I miss when I felt that personal computers were a new wave of democratized capital, a kind of affordable factory for individual owners to use pursuing their own autonomy and power... and not just for programmers.

I underestimated the economic forces trying to turn them into devices for enforcing the interests of a large company onto the owner and turning the owner into a renter.

[+] phendrenad2|2 months ago|reply
Windows XP sold for $200 in 2001. In 2025, that's $364[1]. If we can find enough people willing to pay $364 for an OS that values privacy and doesn't push needless upgrades, that'll be a start. But XP itself was probably priced based on the belief that people would be upgrading in a few years to Windows Vista. So we might need more than that.

[1] - According to minneapolisfed.org, which uses the official economist-approved inflation rates. Not that I'm implying that there's anything wrong with that. I have all of the orthodox beliefs about inflation that a good citizen should have.

[+] thayne|2 months ago|reply
Hardware support isn't all that bad anymore. Certainly better than it was when I started using Linux.

It isn't perfect. You'll probably have a better experience with AMD than Nvidia GPUs, most fingerprint readers probably won't work, and newly released hardware might not have drivers for a few months, but most stuff just works.

[+] mschuster91|2 months ago|reply
> I remember the days of Macintosh System 7 and Windows 95. No upselling services. No automatic updates. No nagging. You turned your computer on, executed programs, and that was it.

I 'member the days of Win 98, Win ME and Win XP... made good money cleaning up malware - browser toolbars, dialers, god knows what - from computers. Some came from the hellholes that were Java, ActiveX or Flash, some came from browser drive-by exploits served from advertising networks, but others just came from computers that were attached directly to the Internet from their modems.

And I also 'member Windows being prone to crashes, particularly graphics drivers, until Windows 7 revamped the entire driver model.

Oh, and (unrelated) I also 'member websites you could use to root a fair amount of Android and Apple phones.

All of that is gone now, it has gotten so, so much better thanks to a variety of protection mechanisms.

[+] edg5000|2 months ago|reply
Can you provide some details on the reasons for needing MS Offfice? I'm genuinely curious. What does LibreOffice do differently that makes it a problem for you to use? Personally my only complaint is the performance of LO, which could be better.
[+] melchebo|2 months ago|reply
Do not connect it to the internet. Problem solved.

Basically anything in a social network needs to learn to defend itself against threats. Make computer a hermit, and it can go without updates for a long time.

(Oh, but you don't like that? Well, Microsoft doesn't like getting in the news for some worldwide botnet of all Windows 10 machines. I bet they'll figure this out sooner or later.)

[+] vbezhenar|2 months ago|reply
Microsoft Office somewhat works in the browser. Certainly good enough for me, although 99% of my actions is upload document to onedirve, open it in web MS Office version, export to pdf and then read with standard tools.
[+] chaostheory|2 months ago|reply
> but the problem with switching to these platforms is that I still need Microsoft Office

Microsoft Office Online works fine on Linux. In fact, it’s superior to native MS Office in terms of stability.

[+] jazzyjackson|2 months ago|reply
What kills me is there seems to be no option for accounting that is acceptable to CPAs besides being held captive paying whatever QuickBooks cloud demands. It's not like dual entry accounting has changed much in 500 years. There are bank integrations and service contracts (notably Apple Card wasn't willing to pay licensing fees for the quickbooks file format, so you simply couldn't syncronize your accounts with your spending, instead falling back to manual import), but they would not make investors happy by merely offering bank connection services

(God forbid banks be required by law to offer a web connector that allows you to request your own data. A workaround I've tried is to have my bank send me an email alert on every transaction over a penny, so at least I have a record, but never got around to setting up an auto import from my inbox)

[+] makeitdouble|2 months ago|reply
> I miss the days when personal computers were simply tools, akin to pencils and handheld calculators.

> System 7 and Windows 95

If Windows 95 was the complexity level of a pencil to you, Win 10/11 is merely a color pencil. You should be fine getting rid of the nagging and adapting it to your needs, it hasn't become 10x or 100x more complex, merely incrementally more.

> Microsoft [...] not exploiting their platforms.

That's a phrase I didn't expect. What part of Microsoft do you feel was leaving money on the table, as they were sued by basically the whole globefor their business practices ?

[+] Animats|2 months ago|reply
Why would anyone want to buy a new computer now unless the old one is worn out? There is no price/performance improvement. Nor will there be for the next five years or so. NVidia says to expect 10% price increases each year. DRAM prices have doubled, and Samsung says not to expect price cuts. Micron just exited the retail RAM business.

Microsoft is trying to escape this trap by pivoting to Windows as a subscription service. It will get worse, not better.

[+] rob74|2 months ago|reply
Yes. So Microsoft (which manufactures hardware itself and has close ties to other hardware manufacturers) needed to find... other ways to, er, motivate people to buy new hardware anyway. Which brings us back to the blog post we are commenting on.

Not sure Windows as a subscription service is the end goal though. But maybe we should all wish for M$ to do that, maybe that would be what's needed to finally bring about the Year of The Linux Desktop™.

[+] pwg|2 months ago|reply
> Why would anyone want to buy a new computer now unless the old one is worn out? There is no price/performance improvement.

Which is exactly why MS is pivoting to begging you to buy a new computer by harassing you with an apparently undismissable "upgrade" dialog.

They have to keep the upgrade treadmill running, and lacking "better performance" as the bait, they have resorted to outright harassment.

[+] JoshTriplett|2 months ago|reply
> There is no price/performance improvement.

Both performance and performance-per-watt continue to improve with each new generation of CPUs.

[+] markus_zhang|2 months ago|reply
My only complain is that nowadays laptops are usually poorly built, so unless one purchases an expensive guarantee, anything beyond the default guarantee is not guaranteed.
[+] eswat|2 months ago|reply
Sad to look back years ago when the first mobile apps started adopting this "Remind Me Later"-only dark pattern and is now festering everyday drivers like your OS.

Between these and services that suddenly suffer from amnesia and spamming me with marketing notifications and emails after months or years of silence, it’s becoming more tiring to use any service that grows significantly enough where they don’t need to care about what their users actually want.

[+] nfriedly|2 months ago|reply
I used Rufus to make a Windows 11 installer USB drive that bypasses the TPM check and online account setup and a couple of other things. I've been using that along with O&O Shut Up 10++, and Firefox with uBlock Origin to refresh computers for local folks.

With the "requirements" check bypassed, Windows 11 actually runs on the Intel 1st gen Core i-series and newer, as well as any Ryzen CPU and, I think, a couple of earlier AMD generations. (It requires the popcount instruction, which isn't present on the Core 2 and older.)

Anything older gets Windows 10 IoT which gets updates until 2032.

[+] BLKNSLVR|2 months ago|reply
One of the reasons I made the jump to Linux was the level of effort it took to disable all the shit that I don't want Windows to do. It became easier to just install Linux (Ubuntu, PopOS) and not have to futz with configuration to turn a bunch of unnecessary 'default on' stuff off - just get on and use the thing.

Yay Linux.

[+] noinsight|2 months ago|reply
> bypasses the TPM check

The caveat with this is that it will fail the check on subsequent version upgrades too and will refuse to upgrade.

Non-Enterprise editions are only supported for 2 years so your 25H2 (or whatever it is) installation will go sour in 2027.

[+] thiht|2 months ago|reply
Wait so the TPM check is not some kind of real Windows 11 limitation? They could make an option to bypass this check (with all kind of "I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING" checkboxes I assume), they just chose not to do it? This is madness
[+] aagha|2 months ago|reply
That's sweet.

I've never figured out how to best use O&O ShutUp10 so I can use it without constantly having to figure out why something stopped working.

Do you have a setup you'd recommend?

[+] 50208|2 months ago|reply
Wish there was a link to this ...
[+] TiredOfLife|2 months ago|reply
The Rufus way will break on updates. But there is a fully supported version of Windows 11 that doesn't have those requirements. Windows 11 IoT Enterprise LTSC
[+] cl3misch|2 months ago|reply
Afaik you can install Win11 without TPM but you won't get Windows updates then. If I'm okay to not get updates I might as well stay on Win10?
[+] canyp|2 months ago|reply
The most egregious thing in recent iterations of Win11 is that a fresh installation will basically map all of your home folder to OneDrive. My Documents, My Pictures, My Music, etc. A recent Windows update also told me that I need OneDrive now to back up my files. Yup, apparently you really, really need it.
[+] jjaksic|2 months ago|reply
Linux has made an insane amount of progress in recent years. Atomic distros like Bazzite and Aurora are so polished, modern, easy to use, and virtually unbreakable. Even most Windows games work perfectly out of the box (often better than on Windows). Anyone who tried Linux in the past and wasn't happy, should take another look. These distros are so incredible it's hard to believe.

Meanwhile Windows has been getting worse and worse. Completely unreasonable and unnecessary hardware requirements, spyware, constantly running antivirus and other processes you don't want, forced updates and reboots, shoving AI down your throat. In other words, you pay money to have a worse experience and less control over your own PC.

I've been ideologically opposed to Windows for a while, but a few years ago Linux required many trade-offs and compromises, to the point I wouldn't have recommended to most people. But now things are completely different and I would happily recommend it to anyone except those who have a hard requirement for MS software (or Adobe).

[+] mastazi|2 months ago|reply
For many types of users, Windows is no longer viable. I have friends who work at a .NET shop and most of that team now uses Macs. Unthinkable just a few years ago. Meanwhile, I checked ProtonDB and now 90% of my Steam library is Platinum or Native. So I finally switched my gaming PC to Linux. Microsoft's priorities are elsewhere, Windows doesn't have a bright future.
[+] seph-reed|2 months ago|reply
Yeah. It really does seem that Microsoft is giving up on... everything? Like Xbox is kinda out, Windows is not great, and their AI never comes up as meaningful.

I wouldn't personally work for them ever. I've only heard bad things about their codebase... and I know people like to complain, but it's usually comedy levels of bad.

[+] prmoustache|2 months ago|reply
In late 2025, there are plenty of alternatives:

Linux FreeBSD NetBSD OpenBSD DragonflyBSD Haiku Plan9 Redox ReactOS Debian Gnu/Hurd FreeDOS Genode SculptOS

And probably some others I haven't heard of. Using Windows in 2025 AND complaining about it is complaining about a self inflicted wound.

[+] beached_whale|2 months ago|reply
Microsoft with the push to require TPM 2.0, that isn't really required, is responsible for huge amounts of new e-waste. Any green initiative they claim is out the door.
[+] kosma|2 months ago|reply
Surprisingly effective solution:

  Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
  
  [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate]
  "ProductVersion"="Windows 10"
  "TargetReleaseVersion"=dword:00000001
  "TargetReleaseVersionInfo"="22H2"
[+] petcat|2 months ago|reply
> at this point a Windows machine only belongs to you in name. Microsoft can run arbitrary code on it.

I get what the author is trying to say, but...like... obviously?

[+] gmponyo|2 months ago|reply
Do yourself a favor and start using Linux on both machines.
[+] CommenterPerson|2 months ago|reply
I ordered a basic Windows laptop, it comes with Windows 11. It's going to be my Linux starter computer. I'm not a computer person. Wish me luck!
[+] drnick1|2 months ago|reply
The Penguin is calling.
[+] throwaway613745|2 months ago|reply
Ultimately, I didn't switch to Linux because I wanted to. I switched to Linux because Microsoft became so actively hostile to me I felt like I didn't have any other choice.

No Microsoft, I'm not buying new hardware just to get the new OS. No, I'm not going to let you nag me every single day until I get pissed off enough to. No, I will not tolerate all the little things in your OS that piss me off everyday. Your software sucks. Your filesystem sucks. Your constant nagging sucks. I don't want your cloud TPM security bullshit and I DEFINITELY don't want Copilot or Recall.

Seriously Microsoft: fuck you.

Giving up being able to play certain games - which require me to install malware into my computer anyway - is a small price to pay to have my sanity and freedom back. I own my computer, not you. Goodbye and good riddance.

I already used MacOS and Linux for work anyway. But don't worry Apple, you're riding that line pretty dangerously too - you're gonna be next on the chopping block if you don't get your act together. Framework Desktop is looking like a mighty capable replacement for my Mac Studio.

[+] damion6|2 months ago|reply
Use Rufus it'll disable hardware requirements, without hassle. You will need an iso. If you know someone with 11 have them download it. Otherwise download the generic.
[+] jongjong|2 months ago|reply
I switched to Linux about 10 years ago... I used to keep a partition on the side for Windows for dual-boot... But nowadays I just wipe my drive clean!

With my latest computer, I noticed that some kind of boot protection was added in the BIOS which made it harder to install Linux from USB... I had to disable the safety mechanism in the bios before it would let me boot... It's a shame because, at a glance, I actually thought the Windows UI had improved since the last version a few years ago which was appalling...

But yeah I hate Windows' coercive approach. This is why I was never an Apple fan. I hate how Apple keeps trying to hide the underlying hardware like the file system and external (non-Apple) devices.

These companies are basically PsyOps in my view. There are many better free (open source) alternatives available where you actually own the OS. I don't understand how people can stand renting inferior software for 10x the price as owning a better alternative.

It's like if I offered people to rent a Ford car for $20k per year or get a free Mercedes Benz, and 90% choose to rent the Ford because it feels familiar and their friends also rent a Ford... What is wrong with people?

There is something seriously wrong with people. It's like someone (or something) hypnotized them. Are we sure we don't have ASI controlling people? This is not normal.

This is like; what kinds of people are trying to accumulate fiat money nowadays? There's nothing behind it. It's just digits inside a bunch of different databases without any consensus between them and where the government can create unlimited digits for free. Something wrong with people.

[+] andrewstuart|2 months ago|reply
Satya Nadella really nosedived Windows.
[+] markus_zhang|2 months ago|reply
There must be a way to disable this thing. Maybe we can disable the service? But anyway I already switched to Linux for my daily usage. It is not smooth as Windows due to driver issues and other weird things, like Firefox crashing frequently when I’m typing in a text box like this one, but still feels better than Windows.

The Windows team and its product manager is determined to trash the product. Good work!

[+] hoherd|2 months ago|reply
A few days ago I started up an old Windows 10 laptop that I haven't used in a few years so my son could play a game that I haven't taken the time to set up in proton on linux. I was amazed at how much the Windows OS experience seems like an unhealthy relationship where the OS is trying to manipulate you and control you. It feels like it's not even my computer, it's a Microsoft owned kiosk that I'm allowed to partially use.

Another really remarkable thing is how cloud connected it is. For instance, the lock screen had online feeds shown. The setting to disable them is on a remote website, not in the screensaver prefs or some other local system pref. That was astonishing, and IMHO absurd. If it hadn't been clear to me before, that made it crystal clear that what MS wants the OS to be and what I want the OS of my personal computer to be are not remotely the same thing.