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What's causing populism around the world? It's the Internet Stupid (Fukuyama)

10 points| mfkhalil | 2 months ago |persuasion.community

41 comments

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nephihaha|2 months ago

The fact that most countries are ruled by machine politicians who know more about each other than the populace they rule. Populists speak about things the masses want to hear addressed without necessarily providing the appropriate answers.

PaulHoule|2 months ago

What folks like Fukuyama don't get is that this situation was predicted in the 1960-1970 time frame and looking back seems fated, inevitable.

1962 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Image:_A_Guide_to_Pseudo-e... predicts that television performers will eventually overtake and outclass conventional politicians

1964 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understanding_Media Marshall McLuhan predicts that 'television' will displace the 'Gutenberg Galaxy' of print but it could do it in the form of ABC/NBC/CBS but take the same (physically, later functionally) screen attached to an image synthesizer and versatile communication network and you get YouTube, which does.

1971 The Information Machines: Their Impact on Men and the Media by Ben Bagdikian reports on studies at the RAND corporation predicting that something like the WWW would come online in the early 1980s -- and technically it did in the form of services like Compuserve and The Source. Bagdikian pitched this vision to leaders in the media industry and was roundly rejected and was the origin story that led to his famous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Bagdikian#The_Media_Monopo...

In the 1970-1995 period the development of communication networks lagged behind all predictions because incumbents didn't want to make investments -- had they done so, Google, Facebook, Amazon and such would have been strangled in their cribs. The WWW seemed to take over so fast because it was actually delayed ten years and the technology to realize it had been sitting around latent and underutilized.

1975 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimation_Crisis_(book) by Jürgen Habermas outlines a conflict between "expertise required to make decisions concerning complex science and technology" and "public participation" that he sees no way to resolve.

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The "legitimation crisis" is the immediate crisis that Fukuyama sees, but connected to it is a long term breakdown in community pointed out by the likes of Nisbet and Putnam which manifests as a breakdown in household formation. We're pressing the panic button right now to save children who are halfway through school but... boy we are in trouble.

aebtebeten|2 months ago

> The WWW seemed to take over so fast because it was actually delayed ten years and the technology to realize it had been sitting around latent and underutilized.

Not so sure about this point: IIRC modem development was going on in a big way during the initial growth phase of the WWW?

Thanks for the pointer to "Legitimation Crisis"; 'a conflict between "expertise required to make decisions concerning complex science and technology" and "public participation"' sounds like the fundamental problem of anarchism as well.

As for household formation, I think the root lies deeper: take a look at "Democracy in America": https://www.gutenberg.org/files/815/815-h/815-h.htm#link2HCH... ; my experience has been that the voluntary associations described (thus forming a "felt", not a "fabric" of society) are way more alive on this continent than I recall them being, back across the Atlantic in the Old World of America.

jauntywundrkind|2 months ago

A lot of these issues could or should be somewhat headed of by a responsible media, and by more disdain for politicians out to rip the system.

I sort of think Fukuyama was at least as close if not closer, in this famous quote. The issue isn't just screens and the virality of it all, it's the soft men making hard times problem, just more weirdly than we expected,

> But supposing the world has become "filled up", so to speak, with liberal democracies, such as there exist no tyranny and oppression worthy of the name against which to struggle? Experience suggests that if men cannot struggle on behalf of a just cause because that just cause was victorious in an earlier generation, then they will struggle against the just cause. They will struggle for the sake of struggle. They will struggle, in other words, out of a certain boredom: for they cannot imagine living in a world without struggle. And if the greater part of the world in which they live is characterized by peaceful and prosperous liberal democracy, then they will struggle against that peace and prosperity, and against democracy.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/10161514-but-supposing-the-...

There's so many imagined threats everywhere. Insane conspiracies about Jade Helm or mind control contrails. People have flocked to absolute ridiculous delusional nonsense, in order to believe they are under attack, in order to let themselves feel oppressed. Anything fabrication for a just cause against the too peaceful state.

Or look at the anti-woke Buchanan invented in 1992 idea of the Culture Warriors. Even 30 years ago it was a need to instill a sense of strife, to frame it bad. Reagan before, terrifying the population of the state. All so silly. DEI is the big boogeyman now, the fear machine. But looking hard at the numbers, we find it really didn't actually cause a loss of opportunity for white men! Their numbers were fine. https://bsky.app/profile/iansociologo.bsky.social/post/3matx...

It's all such cowardice. Being afraid of spectres, being easily stirred by the dark side emotions. No matter how nonsense. And the media & opposition have all given up trying to steer this ship of fools.

jalapenos|2 months ago

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PaulHoule|2 months ago

The contradiction of the far right is that the visions of Jerry Falwell and Ayatollah Khomeini [1] are essentially the same vision when compared to secularism.

The engine of the world as we know it is a great migration of people from the farm to cities which has kept our culture stable as we got fresh people with traditional values to reinforce a culture smashed by the forces of modernism and postmodernism. Under the sign of autonomy and individualism, the "global north" has lost the ability to reproduce culturally and is now losing the ability to reproduce biologically. People from the "global south" are still like our grandfathers (e.g. the real "real" people J.D. Vance is looking for)

That migration was buying us time, and halting it is forcing the crisis by which man takes responsibility for his existence on a finite planet from our molecules up because he has no choice or... dies.

[1] I will raise my hand for Khomeini because he can at least see some value in Christianity insofar as he believed Islam is it's continuation.

clipsy|2 months ago

> What's causing the "populism" (which I assume means "democratic movements that the left don't like") is actually quite simple: the left are wrong and bad.

> Otherwise, the claim is arrogantly that all these people voting in characters like Trump are simply stupid and driven purely animalistically by emotions like hate.

> Which indicates, by the why, where most leftism flows from: narcissism.

So to summarize, it's perfectly OK to smear the entire left with one brush, but heaven forbid anyone does it to the right.