As someone who founded a startup that navigated the legal boundaries of an over-regulated industry, I may suggest that the founders may find comments that say "not sure if this is legal" a little annoying. I doubt they put their blood sweat and tears into this without going at least as far as they could to determine whether they could legally do this.
Now, "I've done something similar and here is what I ran into" or "I'm an expert and here's what you're up against" - now that's constructive.
Actually, I'm really surprised they got permission from all the sports leagues to use their trademarks and not have to put some small print in crediting them. You don't get to use the Premier League logo, for example, without a licence.
(to answer your second point, I've done a lot of work in the sports area, so use of league and team logos is something I'm fairly up on).
I seriously can not tell you how many times someone in Virginia went to thecityswig.com and then was like "awesome, but did you know ABC in Virginia has strict laws?" - No, I spent a year building this and it never occurred to me.
So maybe I'm just projecting, but I would find those comments annoying.
By that token we would assume that anything that takes any effort is legal.
You can argue if something should be legal or not and that's a fair debate, but some people are concerned if something is legal or not, and they have a right to ask that question.
Personally I wouldn't use the site because they're using the logos of well known sports organisations, and I presume they're doing this without their knowledge or approval. It's maybe not a big deal but it's enough for me not to trust them with my data.
I would agree with you, but for several, very crucial facts:
1) The use of logos without permission. Some of these leagues do not allow the use of their logos in connection with betting. That alone suggests they did not put much research into the legal and business environment they are trying to play in.
2) The website. Are you really going to tell me that a startup which has managed to land licensing agreements with all of those leages can't do better than a website my mother could create in 10 minutes? The lack of effort in the website--the point of first impression of most of their customers--strongly suggests a lack of effort in other areas.
3) Show HN. A startup in this field, somehow snatching up licenses to some of the most popular, heavily betted leagues...and the first we've heard about it is on Show HN? No TechCrunch, no WSJ, no Gambling News, no nothing. No details on the team, on the investors, on anything.
Tomasien, you have a legitimate gripe. But the people behind this website have clearly not done their homework.
To use SportsChimp, you must be at least 18 years old and a resident of the United States. By using SportsChimp, you represent and warrant that you are least 18 years old and a resident of the United States.
Isn't this weird? Not only are they saying it's illegal to use this from outside the US, it is inside the US where they'll have the most trouble making this work. These terms were probably lifted from some app/service where they made sense.
I highly doubt these terms were lifted from another app/service.
I believe the goal of this app is Sportbook related - but with a twist: it's a game right now. But I see people being upgraded to a "game for fun" to as a "Look how much money you can make if this was real money." Like Zynga Poker - but the end goal isn't you buying more Zynga poker chips to play for fun, but rather bet real money on sports.
No idea who is behind this, but I wouldn't be surprised if a Sportsbook in Costa Rica, UK or Europe is bankrolling/investing in this. The Sportbook industry is declining each year as less and less people are gambling on sports as it seems the 20-30 year olds aren't as interested as the generations before them. This is a great way to create a new generation of sport gamblers.
When I saw Ashton Kutcher in the demo image it made me think that this was his latest venture - but I can't find any mention of him investing in this on Google. Thus I feel I cant trust the company behind this. No trust = no signup.
You don't have to use buy-in using real money in order to play. Right now, the app is only using a virtual currency, which can be translated into real winnings.
I have a similar app (http://pickmoto.com) for iPhone and iPad. It's clear that we can't legally use the logos without a license. But of course the leagues aren't going to pay attention to indie developers until they are genuine threats. At that point, maybe you could afford to pay for the license or work something out.
We decided against risking it with logos because Apple could yank us at a moment's notice even if we made it into the Store. And considering that some of the best selling apps are developed by the Leagues, we imagine Apple would be pretty quick to act if the Leagues asked.
So instead, we're using pennants without logos. Not ideal, but safer.
> But of course the leagues aren't going to pay attention to indie developers until they are genuine threats.
The NFL and MLB have very litigious IP counsel, who are kept on retainer and paid very generous amounts of money solely to police for unlicensed uses of their trademarks. In all likelihood, they've already got a cease-and-desist for sportschimp working up right now.
Tried using it on a Nexus 7, some frustrating issues with UI because it aligns off to the right instead of taking up the full screen, and some elements are off the page so not clickable. Might want to try it on different tablets?
Looks really interesting but will rely heavily on getting people to invite friends and be actively involved, not sure what's going to make it sticky...
As it uses virtual currency in the game the ability to win as a disconnected outcome is a bit of a grey area, but should be fine if done correctly in that betting is not illegal in itself, it is the processing of payments of US$ on wagers that is illegal.
There will be more and more of these games as companies who don't wish to get effectively blacklisted from publishing and marketing in the US once real money gambling apps become legal position themselves for market share of the faux betting space so then can switch it up when/if the legalities are changed.
Using the logos of the sports organisations is probably infringing copyright.
Whether or not the gambling bit is legal would depend on where the company is based, but then again it's Zynga's love child, you wouldn't expect everything to be above board would you?
[+] [-] tomasien|13 years ago|reply
Now, "I've done something similar and here is what I ran into" or "I'm an expert and here's what you're up against" - now that's constructive.
[+] [-] objclxt|13 years ago|reply
(to answer your second point, I've done a lot of work in the sports area, so use of league and team logos is something I'm fairly up on).
[+] [-] tomasien|13 years ago|reply
So maybe I'm just projecting, but I would find those comments annoying.
[+] [-] rudimk|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] analog|13 years ago|reply
You can argue if something should be legal or not and that's a fair debate, but some people are concerned if something is legal or not, and they have a right to ask that question.
Personally I wouldn't use the site because they're using the logos of well known sports organisations, and I presume they're doing this without their knowledge or approval. It's maybe not a big deal but it's enough for me not to trust them with my data.
[+] [-] rprasad|13 years ago|reply
1) The use of logos without permission. Some of these leagues do not allow the use of their logos in connection with betting. That alone suggests they did not put much research into the legal and business environment they are trying to play in.
2) The website. Are you really going to tell me that a startup which has managed to land licensing agreements with all of those leages can't do better than a website my mother could create in 10 minutes? The lack of effort in the website--the point of first impression of most of their customers--strongly suggests a lack of effort in other areas.
3) Show HN. A startup in this field, somehow snatching up licenses to some of the most popular, heavily betted leagues...and the first we've heard about it is on Show HN? No TechCrunch, no WSJ, no Gambling News, no nothing. No details on the team, on the investors, on anything.
Tomasien, you have a legitimate gripe. But the people behind this website have clearly not done their homework.
[+] [-] fredoliveira|13 years ago|reply
To use SportsChimp, you must be at least 18 years old and a resident of the United States. By using SportsChimp, you represent and warrant that you are least 18 years old and a resident of the United States.
Isn't this weird? Not only are they saying it's illegal to use this from outside the US, it is inside the US where they'll have the most trouble making this work. These terms were probably lifted from some app/service where they made sense.
[+] [-] mtjl79|13 years ago|reply
I believe the goal of this app is Sportbook related - but with a twist: it's a game right now. But I see people being upgraded to a "game for fun" to as a "Look how much money you can make if this was real money." Like Zynga Poker - but the end goal isn't you buying more Zynga poker chips to play for fun, but rather bet real money on sports.
No idea who is behind this, but I wouldn't be surprised if a Sportsbook in Costa Rica, UK or Europe is bankrolling/investing in this. The Sportbook industry is declining each year as less and less people are gambling on sports as it seems the 20-30 year olds aren't as interested as the generations before them. This is a great way to create a new generation of sport gamblers.
My 2 cents.
[+] [-] gearoidoc|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] boglin|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ryan_Shmotkin|13 years ago|reply
Very nice graphics but UX is terrible
[+] [-] zackyap|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nav|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] steve8918|13 years ago|reply
My guess is that people may be able to transfer money into accounts, but if this app get shutdown, customers may lose some or all of their money.
[+] [-] manish_gill|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] benrpeters|13 years ago|reply
We decided against risking it with logos because Apple could yank us at a moment's notice even if we made it into the Store. And considering that some of the best selling apps are developed by the Leagues, we imagine Apple would be pretty quick to act if the Leagues asked.
So instead, we're using pennants without logos. Not ideal, but safer.
[+] [-] jwildman77|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rprasad|13 years ago|reply
The NFL and MLB have very litigious IP counsel, who are kept on retainer and paid very generous amounts of money solely to police for unlicensed uses of their trademarks. In all likelihood, they've already got a cease-and-desist for sportschimp working up right now.
[+] [-] creativityhurts|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vikramhaer|13 years ago|reply
Looks really interesting but will rely heavily on getting people to invite friends and be actively involved, not sure what's going to make it sticky...
[+] [-] ad93611|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] citricsquid|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nav|13 years ago|reply
Legality:
No buy-in using your credit card. No independent wagers on a specific match-up.
[+] [-] shocks|13 years ago|reply
Shame I'll never use it, because I don't have Facebook.
[+] [-] matznerd|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] johncullington|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] slaroia|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shalintj|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anikendra|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] johncullington|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] boglin|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] weego|13 years ago|reply
There will be more and more of these games as companies who don't wish to get effectively blacklisted from publishing and marketing in the US once real money gambling apps become legal position themselves for market share of the faux betting space so then can switch it up when/if the legalities are changed.
[+] [-] analog|13 years ago|reply
Whether or not the gambling bit is legal would depend on where the company is based, but then again it's Zynga's love child, you wouldn't expect everything to be above board would you?
[+] [-] shankarmahesh|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] roadmojo|13 years ago|reply