> When asked to comment on Lavoie's declaration, a DHS spokesperson said in a statement to Reason: "The INA requires aliens and non-citizens in the US to carry immigration documents. Real IDs are not immigration documents—they make identification harder to forge, thwarting criminals and terrorists."
>But of course, Venegas is a U.S. citizen, so he is not required to carry non-existent immigration documents.
Reading between the lines here: citizens who happen to be personae non gratae can be detained indefinitely as soon as they fail to produce immigration documents.
These documents are allowed to not exist if someone is a citizen. Alas, if there is no reliable way to prove one's citizenship, then nobody really needs to be treated like a citizen and everyone can be detained at will.
And this last point, given the current US political context, seems to be why Real ID is being undermined right now.
At the outset the article rather bizarrely casts the subject circumstances as a matter of government incompetence in its design and execution of an identification standard as opposed to the reality it then reports on which is DHS tripping over itself to justify unlawful detention of US citizens without cause.
Yes, this article is junk. The motivating story in it is an actual REAL ID and a genuine US citizen; no evidence is presented that the REAL ID is actually unreliable for its purpose other than the claims of an agency that’s bungling its own illegal operations.
I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to use this as justification for a national ID, even though (to my knowledge) that would require amending the Constitution (or just ignoring it).
This feels strange and biased, and I’m not sure it belongs on HN.
The only context in which DHS claims Real ID is “unreliable” appears to be during mass detentions. That framing reads less like a genuine critique of Real ID and more like a convenient justification: “Sorry, we detained you because you look Mexican. Your Real ID isn’t sufficient.”
The author then shifts blame onto Real ID itself, rather than on DHS agents who are choosing to ignore it.
This does guarantee that I'm a US citizen. Only about 5 border states have these as of now. I can cross the border with it in a car, boat, or in foot with one, but not a plane. It's indicated by a flag on your dl. These licenses are confusing and are poorly named. Then there are also passport cards.
This is a mess of confusing different documents that I bet most US law enforcement doesn't understand.
The actual point is, as a citizen, I’m not required to carry any form of ID just to go about my daily business. This is not supposed to be a “papers please” country.
I can't speak to any original purpose of the act, but Real IDs in practice have never guaranteed a person currently has legal status. It is not even enough on its own to demonstrate the ability to legally work (see form I-9).
If you want to quickly prove citizenship, a passport is what you need.
> If you want to quickly prove citizenship, a passport is what you need.
Yes, but there's no general requirement for a US citizen to have a passport, let alone carry it while in the US. Or really to carry any identification unless operating a motor vehicle on public roads, transiting an airport, or purchasing controlled substances like sudafed, etc.
The burden should be on DHS to disprove citizenship.
I mean i literally was forced to get a real ID since i was in the US for more than 10 days (you can't drive on a foreign license longer than that in California and they hand out real ID licenses now).
It's no trouble to get a real ID licence as a non-US citizen. They literally have a process for this.
This article seems mind boggingly stupid. They are trying to create drama out of something that isn't there.
> ...when our Fourth Amendment rights are eroded, there is no evidence or piece of plastic that will suffice to overcome an officer's "reasonable suspicion" once the government decides you're a target.
This is the real issue here. The government is choosing to act in bad faith, and no legislated law can prevent this if the courts fail to enforce the law.
I don't want to minimize what this guy went through, but it's important to emphasize that DHS did check within the hour whether he was a US citizen and did release him when they confirmed he was. Most citizens still have no realistic risk of being unpersoned, and it's important that people know that so that they feel comfortable being outspoken against the administration. (If ICE shows up in my neighborhood, for example, I would have a duty to be mean to them rather than hiding in fear.)
of course. they want to determine citizenship arbitrarily on a case by case basis, usually judged on-the-spot based on skin color and whether they think you attend an evangelical (made up faith) church.
If someone is here long enough to obtain a state id, there's no reason to detain them on suspicion of their status having expired, so an unexpired id should be enough to end the encounter.
If they are suspected of some other crime, detain them for that, fine. But no masked goons accosting people because they claim they suspected their immigration status.
As far as I'm aware, that's really only in California, and even then isn't as big of an issue as it's made out to be.
In CA, as an LPR you can get a REAL ID, but its expiry is not the default of the REAL ID (like not "5/10 years from issuance of the underlying document like a driver's license" but is "if your LPR expires 2 years from now, then your REAL ID driver's licence also expires two years from now"). So it's only really an accurate statement if there's subsequent status changes to pre-empt the LPR status.
In WA, as I am, as an LPR I cannot get a REAL ID. WA will only issue to citizens.
This seems to be the key point- I just checked my state issued electronic id and it has no connection with citizenship data so it would be useless in establishing citizenship-you still need a birth certificate or similar.
That's beside the point. This is about citizenship, which, once granted, doesn't become forfeit that easily. A fact that one would presume to be prominently stated on an ID document.
I had "DHL" and was wondering who let them organise ID in the USA. Yet, since I believed that, I did appear to have found this idea plausible.
Department of Homeland Security makes a lot more sense, but as a non-American, is not an acronym I am familiar with.
As a continental European, I do find the ick Anglo countries have with ID weird. Especially if you throw ICE and immigrants into the mix, the whole thing seems designed for collateral damage.
phoe-krk|2 months ago
>But of course, Venegas is a U.S. citizen, so he is not required to carry non-existent immigration documents.
Reading between the lines here: citizens who happen to be personae non gratae can be detained indefinitely as soon as they fail to produce immigration documents.
These documents are allowed to not exist if someone is a citizen. Alas, if there is no reliable way to prove one's citizenship, then nobody really needs to be treated like a citizen and everyone can be detained at will.
And this last point, given the current US political context, seems to be why Real ID is being undermined right now.
yubblegum|1 month ago
johnbender|2 months ago
woodruffw|2 months ago
b00ty4breakfast|2 months ago
ranger_danger|2 months ago
V__|2 months ago
> There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
tyleo|2 months ago
The only context in which DHS claims Real ID is “unreliable” appears to be during mass detentions. That framing reads less like a genuine critique of Real ID and more like a convenient justification: “Sorry, we detained you because you look Mexican. Your Real ID isn’t sufficient.”
The author then shifts blame onto Real ID itself, rather than on DHS agents who are choosing to ignore it.
witte|1 month ago
[deleted]
Alive-in-2025|2 months ago
[deleted]
Alive-in-2025|2 months ago
This does guarantee that I'm a US citizen. Only about 5 border states have these as of now. I can cross the border with it in a car, boat, or in foot with one, but not a plane. It's indicated by a flag on your dl. These licenses are confusing and are poorly named. Then there are also passport cards.
This is a mess of confusing different documents that I bet most US law enforcement doesn't understand.
There are numerous reports of people arrested by ice who even have us passports on them, such as https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-citizen-arrested-by-ice...
wrs|2 months ago
threemux|2 months ago
If you want to quickly prove citizenship, a passport is what you need.
toast0|2 months ago
Yes, but there's no general requirement for a US citizen to have a passport, let alone carry it while in the US. Or really to carry any identification unless operating a motor vehicle on public roads, transiting an airport, or purchasing controlled substances like sudafed, etc.
The burden should be on DHS to disprove citizenship.
AnotherGoodName|2 months ago
It's no trouble to get a real ID licence as a non-US citizen. They literally have a process for this.
This article seems mind boggingly stupid. They are trying to create drama out of something that isn't there.
drweevil|1 month ago
This is the real issue here. The government is choosing to act in bad faith, and no legislated law can prevent this if the courts fail to enforce the law.
euroderf|2 months ago
SpicyLemonZest|2 months ago
rose-knuckle17|1 month ago
poplarsol|2 months ago
maxerickson|2 months ago
If they are suspected of some other crime, detain them for that, fine. But no masked goons accosting people because they claim they suspected their immigration status.
FireBeyond|2 months ago
In CA, as an LPR you can get a REAL ID, but its expiry is not the default of the REAL ID (like not "5/10 years from issuance of the underlying document like a driver's license" but is "if your LPR expires 2 years from now, then your REAL ID driver's licence also expires two years from now"). So it's only really an accurate statement if there's subsequent status changes to pre-empt the LPR status.
In WA, as I am, as an LPR I cannot get a REAL ID. WA will only issue to citizens.
mrkstu|2 months ago
samus|2 months ago
unknown|2 months ago
[deleted]
jmclnx|2 months ago
mrbluecoat|2 months ago
jjgreen|2 months ago
317070|2 months ago
Department of Homeland Security makes a lot more sense, but as a non-American, is not an acronym I am familiar with.
As a continental European, I do find the ick Anglo countries have with ID weird. Especially if you throw ICE and immigrants into the mix, the whole thing seems designed for collateral damage.