[unionjack22]

Here's a trick I've learnt to get an authentic view of events like these, a nice way to parse through the keyboard warrior and ivory tower voices and noise is to hear what Venezuelans, the millions of Venezuelan migrants, and the citizens of neighboring countries who've had to reckon with the legacy of Chavez think about this. You can extend this to anything really with good results.

No valuable insight will be gleaned from chat boards and reddit in the immediate aftermath of these sorts of events.

[dataviz1000]

I've been traveling South America including Colombia, Peru, Chile, and Brazil. There are no good guys anywhere. A lot of the low wage labor come from Venezuela, and in the case of southern Brazil, Cuba. In Lima, Peru it is impossible to take an Uber without having to hear about how much a shit Maduro is. The crisis has strongly affected all countries in South America and if the Venezuelans are able return home and democratically elect a new regime it will be better for everybody.

[gpderetta]

If Venezuelans will end up with fair elections, it will be a good result from a bad action.

But knowing the usual modus operandi in SA, a dictator is more likely to be installed than not.

[boramalper]

Lots and lots of locals were equally excited, if not more, at the beginning of Arab Spring…

[christophilus]

Yeah. Exactly. There have been many regime changes in the last few centuries. It’s hard to think of more than a handful that were actually objectively better. It’s even harder to think of any where the US was involved in the overthrow and installation of the replacement, and it went well. The Marshall plan was good. Any others?

[littlestymaar]

In 1917's Russia too.

[anonnon]

Thankfully Venezuelans aren't Muslim fanatics with a 40-50% chance of their parents being first cousins.

[themafia]

> and the citizens of neighboring countries who've had to reckon with the legacy of Chavez think about this.

Sure, just ask them about the legacy of Chevron in South America next.

If they're old enough ask them about the United Fruit Company.

> You can extend this to anything really with good results.

Your trick is not enough to overcome your ignorance of history.

> No valuable insight will be gleaned from chat boards and reddit in the immediate aftermath of these sorts of events.

Ridiculous. How exactly do you expect me to probe the feelings of an entire nation of people? Have CNN do it for me?

[seydor]

For one, immigrants are not representative of their country, they are so biased that they left.

But i think the opinion of venezuelans has leaked and it s pretty obvious his regime is not popular at home

[marcosdumay]

> For one, immigrants are not representative of their country, they are so biased that they left.

That's close to 20% of their population. And the most relevant factor deciding if people fled or not was whether they could reach another country before Maduro closed the borders.

[mvdtnz]

Venezuelans didn't leave because they were "biased", good grief. They left because they were suffering under poverty, hyperinflation and violence.

[afavour]

I don’t think any valuable insight is to be found in the opinions of migrants either in terms of what any of this means long term.

A lot of Iraqis were happy when Saddam was deposed. They certainly didn’t like what happened next.

[Dumblydorr]

So that equally applies to your comment here and renders it null?

[lucb1e]

If we can't talk about the method then I don't know how to get to good results

[yuppiepuppie]

Yeah, I agree. But it’s also very hard to gather those voices in one place. Any thoughts on where to find these voices beside a personal network?

[6P58r3MXJSLi]

True, but it is like saying that to know China you have to ask the nationalists in Taiwan. Or that to understand Italian resistance you have to ask the millions of people in Italy that supported fascism.

It doesn't work.

[saubeidl]

That's how you get the most reactionary voices. The ones that liked Maduro presumably stayed in Venezuela and didn't start complaining online.

[kristopolous]

So if Americans don't like Trump then, say, Italy can unilaterally bomb San Francisco?

Or should this only be a one way street? Is dropping bombs to disapprove of elections how we're being adults in 2026?

[ericmay]

It’s not a one-way street on principle. Italy could go do whatever it wanted. It’s a one-way street in capabilities to take action.

There isn’t anything stopping Italy, the sovereign state, from doing anything it thinks it could do. What is stopping it from bombing San Francisco (besides it not making sense whatsoever) would be that the US would physically stop the Italian Air Force and navy.

[sejje]

Americans can delete Italy.

Venezuelans can't delete America.

Yes, a bit of a one way street.

[tyre]

I don’t know how many Americans actually approve of this. The left will hate it. Trump’s base has largely been isolationist.

Obviously if someone like Italy bombed us we would invade and beat the shit out of them. We did a two decade, trillions of dollars revenge tour for like 2700 people dying.

(I’m not advocating for any of this but US policy is pretty consistent. Part of the value of a US passport is knowing (and everyone else knowing) that the government will go to incredible lengths to get you back.)

[_vertigo]

I’m American and I don’t like Trump. If Italy did bomb San Francisco and you asked me what I thought of that, I’d say I disapproved.

If China invaded overnight and absconded with Trump, I’d say I disapproved even though I don’t like him.

[xvector]

Sure, they can certainly try. Sovereignty is an illusion until it is tested.

[lynndotpy]

Anyone can already bomb the United States, and I think most people here in the US just don't imagine it happening here, no matter how much we invite a military response.

[tejohnso]

Moral authority through physical superiority.

On the world stage I see everything on display that we try to teach our children to avoid. Lying, bullying, law breaking, it's all in our faces. And the real problem is that it is supported and even celebrated on television, in print, and socia media.

[unmole]

> Italy can unilaterally bomb San Francisco?

They can try.

[aglavine]

I am not an expert but "Don't like" doesn't sound the same of multinational cartel organization overtaking countries, making 8 million people exilees.

[bmacho]

If you have some hard numbers supporting how much Americans don't like Trump and how shit is their life under Trump, then ..maybe? (Also, why the USA, why not start with North Korea, Venezuela etc first.)

We kinda have the obligation to ensure that Earth is not a practical hell for many people.

"Bomb San Francisco" can mean many things, and it is ultimately a Trolley Problem[0], but the answer is not a simple no.

[0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

[303uru]

About the stupidest thing I’ve ever read here. Why does a US perspective not matter when the fucking US conducted the strike? If Russia decides trump stole the election in 2024 you’d just sit back and let them take over?

[anon291]

Many Americans were asking for just this.

[cryptoegorophy]

You simply can’t. Just enjoy the show. Sorry, last 5 years have been a complete destruction of common sense and logic, just focus on something else to remain sane.

[SecretDreams]

The fish celebrate when the bear is hunted. It does not mean order has been restored to the wild.

[password54321]

Yeah this is just flawed. Even people close to what is happening can be ignorant/brainwashed or (and even more likely) have ulterior motives. Venezuela doesn't exactly come across as a sophisticated nation.

[thenaturalist]

> Venezuela doesn't exactly come across as a sophisticated nation.

Yeah this is just flawed.

[toenail]

We have an ongoing war in Europe because one President tried to remove the President of another country. You can perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify military actions, and depending on who you ask you will always get the answers you want.

[unionjack22]

I'm not arguing the point you're making. I'm saying that these discussions on these sorts of things on chat boards populated by privileged western nerds and conspicuous progressives have little merit and are merely a reflection of biases/ego of the privileged western nerd when put up against the lived experiences of people in Venezuela and neighboring states.

[luckylion]

You mean one unelected dictator tried to annex a neighboring country and wanted to remove the elected president of that country.

Please don't spread Russian propaganda by taking over their talking points.

[ponector]

That is not a reason why there is a war. The Ukrainian war is an existential one, a continuation of multiple acts of genocide performed by russians for centuries.

That is a big difference between war in Ukraine and war in Iraq or Venezuela.

Russia has unlimited objectives: destroy Ukrainian identity and sovereignty. Annex the country.

While USA has limited objectives, like to overthrow the government.

[MisterMower]

Information that is known to be wrong is still useful. The immediate talking points on both sides reveal quite a bit if you can read between the lines. Everyone is lying but the lies themselves are revealing.