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srid | 1 month ago

> mindfulness is not even a fraction as effective as most people claim. It always fall apart when you do a proper study with actual measurable effects on life and happiness as outcome.

This is interesting.

Is it also the case for those seeking bliss in the name of "jhana" (cf. Jhourney)?

discuss

order

jtrn|1 month ago

Given that you asked about this topic, I assume you are interested in it, so I apologize in advance if this comes across as negative. I come at this as a ruthless pragmatist. My background is in Metacognitive Therapy (MCT) and long-term mindfulness, so I’ve read the literature. My only metric is: “What is your goal, and does this tool actually help you achieve it?” From that perspective, I have four major issues with the modern "Jhana" movement:

There are currently no large-scale, randomized controlled trials (RCTs) proving the clinical effectiveness of the "Jhourney" method or "Sutta Jhanas" for mental health in the general population. Until we see data, this is experimental, not medical.

Then it strikes me as "Drug-Free Hedonism." It is a classic case of Spiritual Materialism: instead of buying a Ferrari to feel good, you "buy" a Jhana state. It is still the ego seeking gratification, just using a different currency. The marketing language ("ecstatic," "orgasmic," "dopamine hit") explicitly invites a consumerist mindset. You aren't dissolving the self; you are just consuming a peak experience.

The "State vs. Trait" Fallacy In my observation, the people drawn to these niche practices are already optimizing/biohacking types. They are selecting a practice that reinforces their existing personality rather than transforming it. I see very little evidence that accessing these temporary states leads to permanent positive traits or behavioral changes once the "high" wears off.

On a personal moral level, I find the logic of extreme contemplative devotion flawed. Historically, the "true Buddhist" monastic model relies on others for food and sustenance. You can frame this as "spiritual focus," but a pragmatist could easily frame it as a lack of self-sufficiency—or even laziness. I rarely see a tangible improvement in productivity, self-sufficiency, or general functioning in people who dive deep into this mysticism.

That said, I do believe in the "software upgrade" of mindfulness—specifically the ability to step back, observe, and evaluate thoughts without engaging them (the core of Metacognitive Therapy). There is decent evidence for that. But that is a tool for functioning, which is very different from chasing bliss.

etyhhgfff|1 month ago

The buddihst and meditation community is very aware that chasing bliss is not the goal. Jhanas are a tool. A good teacher would advice you to develop enough concentration and use that for insight meditation (vipassana). Mindfulness based stress reduction MBSR has good scientific support, and further studies and meta studies confirm this more often than not.

From personal experience I agree 6 weeks are far too short for any meaningful long teem change, but meditating over the past two years, 45 min daily, had a noticeable impact in my case and there are similar reports all over the internet.