[ntnsndr]

I'm not sure I agree. It takes getting used to, and the default designs tend to feel old-fashioned, giving a false impression that it won't do what you need. The settings feel like you're almost in a config file. Except for on old computers, Gnome or Cosmic are safer starting points.

I guess I assume "BS" means "UX flourishes that most end users are used to," and I'm not sure minimizing it immediately is the best approach to bring people into the ecosystem.

[literallywho]

I've tried Cosmic recently and it's glitches galore right now (on nvidia at least). I think safest point is KDE. The most familiar paradigm, mature wayland support with mixed refresh rate displays, HDR and other modern features that XFCE can't do.

[_0ffh]

Yeah, I think it might be a driver thing (or driver interaction with XFCE code).

After ~10 years of using XFCE, I recently for the first time encountered flickering, after an NVidia driver update. I disabled compositing and it went away. Still happy, but clearly something broke there. Pretty sure someone's trying to fix it, somewhere.

[andrewflnr]

> the default designs tend to feel old-fashioned, giving a false impression that it won't do what you need

Who is actually getting this impression? What thing that they "need" is in doubt?

> I guess I assume "BS" means "UX flourishes that most end users are used to,"

You assume incorrectly. Every OS and DE finds some way to be obnoxious, even when you've learned the tricks and keyboard shortcuts. XFCE just seems to have the least of them. It's predictable. I think a new user will be able to navigate it immediately. I don't know about KDE, but I sure couldn't say the same about Gnome 3.

[Nursie]

> The settings feel like you're almost in a config file.

What on earth?

No, the config has dialogues and intuitive controls. There is a settings-editor you can go into if you need to, with a bit more of a regedit kinda feel, but I haven't looked in there in years.

> Gnome or Cosmic are safer starting points.

In Gnome, can I move the UI elements to locations I want them in? Or are we still in a situation where it's opinionated and you have to seek plugins to get an experience that you actually want?

[lproven]

> In Gnome, can I move the UI elements to locations I want them in?

No.

> Or are we still in a situation where it's opinionated and you have to seek plugins to get an experience that you actually want?

Yes, 100%.

COSMIC feels like GNOME but done right to me. It's not as pretty but while it looks and works pretty much the same by default, you can choose what goes where.

Saying that, I still much prefer Xfce.

[pantalaimon]

For older machines I'd recommend Mate. It's a fork of old Gnome 2, so it got a lot more polish back on the day, even though some of it bit rotted away.

It's still a very nice desktop and you can combine it with Compiz if you want to have some fun.