I also taken up farming in 2013 after 10 years of working on startups (as founder and early engineer, with no success at all). I was about to move back to village I was born at and escaped as fast as I could at the age 15.
I started natural winery at the ripe time when it first started to be popular and managed to miss the wave. It was a great first year after many years of tech grind in big tech hubs. I was waking up late, went for walk where I probably met friend or two who had nothing much to do, so we drink a coffee and talked a bit. Waiting for summer heat to be over, then work in the vineyard till the sun went down and then go to the local pub for beer or four.
I guess it sounds like it was vacation or playing farmer. And that is what it was, really. I did that for couple of years and then moved back to the nearby city and rejoined the startup grind. What I got from this experience is that there are seasons in life and it is great to have an optionality to play with different modes of life. The tech industry will always be there.
I am in my 40s now. Found a wife, got a mortgage and couple of kids. I kept the farm and treated it as a weekend hobby, rented out most of the land and I am slowly building the infrastructure I missed when I started. One day the kids will be old enough and tech will no longer excite me. The season will change, I move back, wake up late, meet with local friends who have nothing much to do during summer heat, work the vineyards and then hit pub when the sun went down.
Reminds me when I was a young consultant and couldn't decide whether to take the long planned vacations or start a new high-urgency project. One of my mentors wisely said to me: "Go, there will be always another exciting project." So I went.
Sometimes it's good to step out and see the bigger picture.
I'm happy this person found a way to live that's meaningful to him, but I grew up as a farmer. You're coming back to something we've known a long time. If a god is what let's you get there, then good, let god keep you whole.
But this is what the classics of stoicism (in the literal sense of both) have been telling us the whole time. We make our own meaning, and money isn't it. Go and grow things. Raise things. Build things.
Civilization is when men plant trees in whose shade they will never sit.
It's honestly quite interesting to me how this presents. I mean: Yes, people should ultimately pursue some form of happiness, but for me that happiness is genuinely doing software engineering work, and I do not think we should demonize the 9-5 office-job. In my opinion it gets too much flack, and the "move to a farm"-dream becomes some kinds of utopic ideal, which I really do not believe it is. I have worked much heavier, more manual jobs in my life and they do not provide more happiness. If anything, they provide less comfort.
For some, the benefits for society are not as immediately visible as a farmer producing potatoes or corn which he/she can touch with their own hands, but in my personal view my job positions me as a not insignificant cog in a gigantic machine which has genuine benefits for society (and some negative influences, yes).
Some red flags in the linked article. Spirituality and barefoot running, which I do not believe is very evidence based to recommend. My opinion is that anyone working a software engineering office 9-5 should also always be doing strength resistance training and some cardio every single week. This should provide the health benefits needed to survive in what is a sedentary job.
There's a story about Diocletian, the emperor who guided Rome through one of the most turbulent periods of its history, and later voluntarily abdicated and retired to his villa. When they begged him back to resolve some conflicts that had arisen he stated:
"If you could see the cabbages I have planted here with my own hands, you surely would never have thought to request this."
This fits them I would say. I was, at a time, chasing the dragon of software minimalism. Y'know, using lynx to browse the web, using suckless software and so on. I was using KISS Linux for a while and even tried to make a package for suckless slock (which iirc was accepted only after someone from the KISS team basically redid my build scripts). So I kinda see myself as a fan of dylan and a great influence on my formative years. (Edit: Formative years apparently means 0-8. I meant more like 16-20 - my bad )
What alwas struck me about dylan araps's software was that the minimalism didnt come from a lack of scope or complexity, but rather the approach to use as much of the tools that were "already there" (at least thats my way to interpret this - i might be wrong).
The pure bash bible is describing how to do common tasks in pure bash. Tasks that usually were done with external tools like sed an awk etc. Then later came the pure sh bible, doing the same for POSIX sh and therefore shedding the dependency on bash-isms.
This represented to me a chase to go "deeper".
And this part clearly seems to still be a driving force to this day. Farming and producing olive oil and wine by hand, no chemicals no bullshit - that sounds like dylan araps alright. Looking at the website you can also see this spirit everywhere. Go ahead and disable JS on https://wild.gr/wine - the image slider still works. It uses inputs and CSS transforms. Makes the markup ever so slightly more complicated, and future changes ever so slightly more involved (unless the code is generated). But lets not kid ourselves, how often are those kind of web elemts updated?
It is once again a project that excels in "using whats already there" and I personally really like that, and even though I am not rocking KISS linux and DWM anymore, this way of thinking is still with me to this day, and I believe it was taught to me by dylan araps. For that I am thankful!
"Now, one day back at Data General, his weariness focused on the logic analyzer and the small catastrophes that come from trying to build a machine that operates in billionths of a second. On this occasion, he went away from the basement and left this note on his terminal:
I'm going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season."
— from "The Soul of a New Machine" by Tracy Kidder
Also, the statement "From a spiritual perspective, there are only two career paths one can take: farmer or artisan. Anything else unavoidably involves doing evil or is essentially meaningless." is just so wrong that it's hard to take rest of the blogpost seriously.
Helping people for example is neither farming, nor artisanal, and is quite arguably the least evil and most selfless things one can do. The world needs caregivers, health workers, etc.
I'm not saying that to be mean, not at all. I just find it odd that for someone who has gone through such a spiritual journey/awakening, become a devout Christian even, to then declare all other careers as evil or meaningless. For every ex-white collar professional now LARPing as a micro-farmer, there are tenfold more people not receiving adequate care.
Is farming not helping people to produce the food they need? Can you categorize jobs and the actions involved in them into the path of “farmer” (those who do standard work to produce for many) or “artisan” (those who do unique work to solve problems for few/many)?
Maybe it’s overreaching, but I like to see it as the writer saying unless your job provides a “good” to world and doesn’t just move bits from one database to another then its a good path.
Theres flaws with that approach too, but one I would give them benefit for.
I wonder about what in the software industry causes so many people to have similar "symptoms" from it.
I believe it must be something about dedicating oneself to creating something that "does not exist" in a material sense.
My 'farming' has been woodworking: completing the simplest wooden furniture has given me a satisfaction that I do not remember any app or software product ever getting close to causing, despite the fact that I love the work.
At least for me it was the realization that I didn't really know why I was doing what I was doing.
I wanted to change the world and make it better, and it felt good to pursue a career with a high salary and prestige, but after years of working in software I was not seeing my work actually make the world better. In fact it was making me feel sick, tired, and depressed.
There was a short period of time in the 2000s when it did feel like tech was beginning to transform peoples lives and society for the better, but after the algorithms and rougher edges of our collective human nature took it over, it all seems to have drastically changed course.
> I wonder about what in the software industry causes so many people to have similar "symptoms" from it.
By and large those who end up in the software industry are engineers at heart, and therefore want to be engineers, not just software developers.
That's why farming is the oft dreamed of escape. In farming you get to be (and have to be, if you want to remain competitive) a software engineer, mechanical engineer, electrical engineer, structural engineer... and on and on. You get to actually solve problems for what they are instead of trying to force arbitrarily selected tools into searching for a problem.
- You now likely have the money/time to pursue passions you didn't know you have, or would have developed if you didn't pursue software development as intensely.
- Even if you had/have passion for computers, being paid to do something you wouldn't do otherwise can quickly drain that passion.
- We're built for sunlight and exercise, not LED light and sitting, so you may have felt increasing physical discomfort that only the former can alleviate.
- Woodworking and farming were never lucrative enough (or as lucrative as computer work) to convince you to make the switch for money.
It's that we make enough money to not be trapped in it for life.
Jobs are, by definition, things you get paid to do, because you wouldn't do them for free. Therefore, by definition, everyone hates their job to some degree. We just have the luxury of leaving.
I'm a software engineer who does woodworking in my spare time. But I've never experienced that satisfaction. I've never made something that is perfect. Every time I look at something I've made all I can see are the flaws. Most of my things are smaller, but I can look at a project I completed 4 years ago and know exactly where the tear-out is that I had to hide, or the errant marking knife line that I tried to sand away, or the snipe from the planer that I didn't have enough spare material to be able to cut off, or the piece of wood that is perfectly shaped but there's a knot that just doesn't look quite right there.
At least with software I can go back and edit my past transgressions.
That's why I realised that I really enjoy embedded systems, as they often include a good level of physical world in their architecture. Using ES in a farming setting is even more satisfying because the code could be extremely simple but still make a huge real impact to people. Love that!
- Our work feels very abstract and removed from real people in the real world. Sometimes I did not even understand what our product did, or it got axed after a year. Marx's theory of alienation felt very real.
- We can afford to consider other options. It actually feels achievable. Few people have that luxury.
- Many of us had a relatively easy career start, and underestimate how hard other fields are to get into.
- The material world just feels better. Making digital art does not feel as good as watercolours. Carving wood is a much more complex sensation than drawing in autocad. Even paper books feel better. I can't explain why, it's just how it is.
I thought about this a lot, which is why I greatly value doing the occasional electronics project, home renovation or even cooking. There is just something about working with something I can touch.
I tried doing the same thing, happy to see it worked out for somebody! I just didn't have the capital or social safety net to get the farm off the ground, so I eventually had to sell the farm and go back to coding.
Someday though...
Yes, this really is an example of someone who "made it" and made a large amount of money that has allowed them to turn around and choose a simpler life. "Oh, I just moved myself and my family off to a little Greek island estate I bought and farming it (along with my existing money) is what provides for us..."
Money may not buy happiness buy money buys you all the freedom you could possibly need to do anything that fits your whimsy.
I guess, these things are long somewhere in the mind, before people execute.
People change countries, partners, careers not because of one book. This is usually the last drop. They were long-term unhappy, yearning for something else.
And as this guy wrote, he was sick, he was burned out. I suppose, he wasn't able to limit his screen time, it was all or nothing. Sometimes, those big changes work better than incremental steps. 20 years ago, I went from a pack of cigarettes a day to zero. If I went to 19, then 18, then 17, I might still smoke to this day.
Reading the description of his previous life, I think there is some background issue/reason that should have been addressed, rather than just go farming. I hope he is and will be happy for a long time now though.
I have an acquaintance - not into IT at all - that did something similar, went to work in a solo eco-farming project (no fertilizers, just let the soil rest, no pesticides obviously, I'm not sure if he went as far as no artificial irrigation either though) and now after a few years he decided he wanted to come back to civilization and he is now working in a factory, in an assembly line.
> From a spiritual perspective, there are only two career paths one can take: farmer or artisan. Anything else unavoidably involves doing evil or is essentially meaningless.
I thought this was a beautiful statement; something to really help us think about what we're trying to do here on Earth. But personally I would add Artist to this. Painter, sculptor, musician, writer, poet, and so on. We need those too.
Edit: As others have reminded me below, service work like doctor, firefighter, teacher must qualify as well.
I disagree, it is not significant at all if you think about the implications here for more than a couple of seconds.
A poet needs his pen and paper. Someone needs to man the paper-mills and ink-factories, someone needs to work on logistics and planning issues related to that, infrastructure etc.
Teachers, Doctors, Nurses, Fire fighters... I can think of an endless list of service based career paths that involve no evil, and are immensely meaningful.
Weird how different people can look at things. For me, since my teenage years, statements like this feel fake and almost evil.
Why I feel this? Because it is a way for people to convince themselves they are pure and kind. People reason that the big bad evil world with evil things and professions can go to hell, and "I won't participate in this". Nice way to lie to yourself.
If you think deeper, you inevitably get a conclusion that if you have talents, you can do real good at a scale. It might be not as fulfilling, and it includes compromises, but amount of good you can do is tenfold or even several orders of magnitude.
In our modern complex world, you can try and see far consequences of your actions or inaction. For example, you can earn western SDE salary, and donate 80% to good causes. It might not be as nice as quiet country life, but it would help a lot of people or animals. That's what my friend is doing. He overdid it, sure, and burned out, but you can always find a balance.
What bothers me is that thing people who downshift into some traditional lifestyle easily do. They somehow feel like 8 billion people can live like that or close to it.
But that will cause insane downgrade of quality of life where it does matter. I'm not talking about consumerism or even experiental consumerism like travel.
Healthcare, child mortality ratez, food safety, and personal safety will be in a downfall without modern institutions, hierarchies and professions. It might be hard and often not fulfilling to be a doctor, or even a programmer. But even programmer can help create things that allow others to connect one with other (internet and phone networks), to get entertainment where options are very limited (games, movies for old people or people with disabilities). For example, my mom uses her smart speaker to provide her music and really enjoys it.
Without it, she barely used CDs because of the friction of buying, storing and inserting it.
Same with movies, she now gets to the point where she watches movies on a streaming platform. She eat he'd nothing except TV when we had VCR and DVDs because of the friction of using it.
All this is possible because of some programmers and other IT people. She also enjoys social networks to some extent, and reads stuff in web. Sure, books also do, but she is limited be ause she lives in an area with not many books available in her native language.
Modern civilization has many issues, but still a lot of benefits that are not possible if everybody would be a farmer or an artisan. Also, artisan stuff is too expensive. And same for eco farming.
We do need art but do people need to choose that as their career path? Traditionally perhaps, was an artist part time, was art made communally as leisure?
Some had rich patrons and there were travelling bands of entertainers...
I usually am the anti-religion type, pointing out the abuses happening in churches, and the general bigotry that leads to more violence rather than fewer. So reaching that part of the article made me cringe. The sentence about him being a sinner especially sounded like bad puritanism.
But then it goes on, the guy is mostly healthier from quitting bad and not-so-bad habits, doing eco-friendly stuff in Greece with his family. It sounds like it worked for him.
This dont-do-evil kind of Christianity is all right.
It's not completely obvious from the post though whether this man embraces the love-thy-neighbor aspect of Christianity. He seems to have this idealistic good-vs-bad view of the world that's typically protestant. And his condescending tone make it sound like whoever doesn't do like he does can rot in hell, cause they deserve it.
Is this actually a business that can make money? My family owns around 1000 olive oil trees in Greece that produce eatable olives and extra virgin olive oil.
The thing is that we always sell the product in intermediates that would pack it up and sell it in a much higher price. I don't know of any small producer that sells the product directly to the consumer. This seems like a very big investment and not really sustainable. Are there other people that are doing it?
Could my knowledge as a software engineer help that family business in any way to be more profitable ?
I sell onions on the Internet [0] is a well known example I've seen, whose author sells Vidalia onions direct to consumers. Another one I know are Miami Fruit [1]. There are no doubt countless examples, but more than software engineering, you need good marketing. If you made an ecommerce site via Shopify (do not code this yourself, it's a waste of time) or wrote a similar article, and posted about them, I'm sure people would find you and order. Personally I'd be interested in buying directly from your farm, let me know how that is possible even if it's a low tech solution for now.
Something you might be able to code is plugins for these ecommerce sites, if it makes sense for your business. I also used to run a loose leaf tea ecommerce store via Shopify but I imported from producers like your family as you describe, and I wrote one for dynamic pricing for buying from various countries due to their purchasing power being less. It'd calculate their power as well as my thresholds and figure out optimal prices where more people could buy it but wasn't screwing me over too.
Most likely not, this is more of a way to retire with money earned from software development and spend time "on business" that isn't really financially viable.
Kudos to author for going this path, but it takes a lot of resources to be able to make a move like this, which is not really an option for a large majority of population.
I always get my olive oil from a farm in Italy that only sells direct to customer. Or my coffee from a shop that gets the beans directly from the farmer (direct trade > fair trade).
It's possible, the market is kind of small I guess but you need to have a product where the customer is happy to pay a premium.
And being a software developer helps because you might have the money to invest?! :)
At that point it becomes an exercise in marketing more than anything else, because the whole business model depends on finding rich customers that are willing to pay a suitable markup to make the extra effort feasabile. And then you have to also be constantly trying to retain those customers....etc
It takes courage to step away from what you were known for, and even more to return and explain why. The journey from burnout to renewal resonates deeply with me, and I suspect many of us recognize the slow decay you're describing.
I'm on a similar path myself, hoping to marry open source and open hardware with farming. Heartfelt congrats to Dylan on finding WILD and the clarity to change course.
Thanks Dylan for all your work over the years. It has been very influential from Neofetch, Wal/Pywal, KISS Linux, to your own Bible, the Pure Bash one!
Wishing you all the best for the future, may the Greek weather keep you happy!
> adopting instead, the diet of my great grandparents: Plants; local, seasonal and whole.
I saw some mention of the same on the website for the farm. Care to share any recipes? Or even just names of dishes? I quite enjoy foods from the Mediterranean and I'm interested in trying more!
Sure! My mother is preparing a book detailing recipes, ingredients, foraging,
how to eat, when to eat and so on which will be released this year. Basically,
we follow the seasons and there are 4-5 "dishes" each season with some overlap.
The "dishes" are templates filled in with whatever is available at the time.
For instance, when chestnuts are in season they enter soups, casseroles, roasts,
salads and on their own drizzled with olive oil and salt. When they finish,
something else is in season and the dishes change again.
There's a very brief period of overlap where the staple summer vegetables
(tomatoes, eggplants, peppers, zucchini) and chestnuts are available at the
same time. These vegetables stuffed with a mix of brown rice and chestnuts and
baked in the oven is heavenly.
Instead of thinking about recipes and then obtaining ingredients to make them,
start with the ingredients and make it up as you go. Things that are in season
together typically go together. We base everything on olive oil, alliums, some
sort of legume or grain and seasonal greens, nuts, fruits and vegetables.
My great grandparents didn't follow recipes per se. When they made a soup they
used what they had and due to lack of refrigeration and ultra-processing
everything they ate was local, seasonal and fresh.
If you're (speaking in general) going through such extremes - working 16h/day then farming and 'discovering' god - I would suggest looking into therapy; simply to regain balance; I also had a period in my life in my 30s where I tried to overcompensate, correct the life course so to speak
overall I don't believe neither extreme is healthy; doing A, then doing 2x the opposite of A because you realize A was not really good for you in the long term
Thank you for sharing your struggles so openly for us to learn from. It's good to hear you've found your self-worth from within instead of without now.
Sure, waste a decade or two and then live your real life.
FIRE is a nice idea, but in the pure sense it is really just the idea of deferring the life you really want to live. You might die before you get there.
The fisherman and businessman story come to mind here.
> All that remained was to decide what to do with my life. From a spiritual perspective, there are only two career paths one can take: farmer or artisan. Anything else unavoidably involves doing evil or is essentially meaningless.
Seems shocking at first, but the more you think about what our SWE works does, for whom, and who benefits the most of it ... IMO it makes sense.
It sounds more like a depression and stress brained reduction to me. Tends to put you in a very binary and extreme thinking mode in my lived experience.
Also I inherently disagree with the idea of meaninglessness the author presents there. Meaning is relative to man, man makes meaning. There is no objective meaning and so you have to choose it for yourself.
For many, software engineering is an artisan endeavor (hence why many are freaking out over AI, it removes their enjoyment of the process even as others, who are solution oriented, like the final output and what problems it can solve without giving a shit about the code, two different types of people).
You can apply software development skills to public good. It's just not the most common path, nor the best-paid one. I should also highlight that SWE has one of the most prolific gift economies out there.
Well, "essentially meaningless" does away with basically anything that isn't water and food, so lets be measured. Working on video games could be done in an ethical, sustainable and non-evil way, but also one can argue is "essentially meaningless" together with everything else too, including "artisan".
> Everything I read made reference to the Bible, something I had never read nor was in any way acquainted with. The references kept appearing and eventually I decided to dive in head first and read it. Putting the King James Version of the Bible on my kindle, over many months I read it cover to cover.
> At the time, I wouldn't have called myself an Atheist. Agnostic is not the right word to use either. Not that I believed or didn't believe in the existence of God, in truth, I had simply never thought about it. In place of an answer was lack of the preceding question.
> I finished reading the Bible. It resonated with me in a way nothing else had before. A mirror was put in front of me and I saw myself clearly for the first time. Finding God, I realized how far I had drifted from the straight and narrow. Weak of mind, steeped in sin, ruled by bodily desires and whims of fancy, the life I led could only lead to one place: the broad road alongside the liars, thieves, fornicators, murderers and cheats, for I was one of them.
I'd like to see this person write in detail about specifically what about the Bible they found resonant, and specifically resonant in a way that lead them towards something like a Judeo-Christian understanding of God and sinfulness. I note that they do not mention Jesus Christ, who is the most important figure in the second part of the Bible, and (arguably) entirely absent from the first half - and indeed the schism between Jews who only take the first half of the Bible seriously and Christians who take the second half seriously as well is a pretty important one!
This isn't a troll post on my part, although I admit that I'm somewhat skeptical that this person read the King James Version of the Bible and was specifically convinced by the various writings in that long and complex text that some kind of Judeo-Christian understanding of the nature of God is the correct one. I think it's more likely that they were in some kind of personal spiritual crisis, read the foundational scripture of one of the major world religions, and were moved in a kind of a general way. I suspect that if they were reading books that made more references to the Quran or to Buddhist sutras, they might've found themselves reading the Quran or Buddhist sutras and ended up in a similar mental state. But I'm not sure of that, which is why I'm genuinely curious to hear more about what specifically in the text of the Bible they found meaningful.
As someone raised in the Jewish faith, and having spent time also learning about the New Testament and the Quran (though without having read the texts directly), I'm inclined to think Christianity on paper is "the best" of the Abrahamic religions, in that the core messages of Jesus are about forgiveness, nonviolence, and helping one another. These messages are in the Torah and the Quran too, to be clear, but specifically with matters of sexuality, gender, and gender roles, Christianity is the most "forgiving" of people who are non-normative or opposed to those norms in the first place.
I say this as someone who doesn't believe in any religion fwiw, not as a born-again Christian or whatever.
And I also want to be clear that there are progressive interpretations of all religious texts, people of all religious practices can be LGBTQ, poly, drug users. And religion can also be used to justify incredible acts of evil. Christianity was the justification for the Inquisition and the Crusades after all, despite the violence of both certainly going against the teachings of Jesus.
> specifically what about the Bible they found resonant
A valid point.
I'm not interested, myself, but this is an interesting question.
My upbringing was very vaguely Church of England Protestant. I read very fast and read a large chunk of the bible as a child. I decided when I was 11 that religion was a fairy story, just a work of fiction and nothing more, and that I didn't believe in it.
I have read much of the Christian bible, and I was top of the class in religious studies at school. I am confident that I know much more about Christianity than 99% of Christians, and most ex-Christian atheists I know are the same.
For most intelligent adults, actually reading the bible is a leading cause of atheism. This is a meme among atheists.
I have never heard of anyone getting religion from the bible before.
This was quite an interesting read. It's good to hear that farming & spirituality have given you a new purpose in life, but I think this pop at Thoreau
> and no, there's no manifesto decrying the system written from a cabin in the woods
Is a bit unjustified considering you've just written an entire blog post decrying your old "meaningless" existence vs the fulfilment you have in your new life. It comes across a bit holier than thou. As if to imply you're "quietly just getting on with it", which is evidently not the case, as you still feel the need to write about it
This is my path, 4 years in the making, which should peak this year when I finally buy a property I have been saving for.
Remarkably similar to the author's, following a massive burnout from work in mid 2020 from which I became a new^Wdifferent person, with a new perspective on life. Three years of therapy later, jailbroken Kindle filled not with the Bible but philosophers and other role models [1]
The eyes of friends and family gloss over when I describe my new goal in life, of finding the tight path between being a computer wiz and finding a life as close to Nature as possible; of finding a community of like-minded people that exist in real life, for someone that grew up and lived all his adult life on the Internet. An Internet of people that keep telling me that urban living and modern technology isn't so bad, that I should stop complaining and schedule another interview that modern tech is "so much fun and comfortable, look at all this money." I do believe we have gone wrong somewhere, I do believe there is a third path between totalitarian techno-optimism and complete rejection of modernity, and perhaps this is the best time in history to explore it, by returning to our roots. Remembering our natural ecosystem which is our home and sustenance. We earn our living in front of a square piece of glass connected to the ether, why the hell would one live packed like a sardine in impersonal and smelly cities? I truly, desperately need to believe in a return to the countryside; to more humane rhythms of living.
My favourite quote is from George Bernard Shaw: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man"
We don't have to abandon all our comforts. And for once the technologists like us can use their brains for the good of humanity and their neighbours, rather than making people click on ads. Go wire solar panels. Build hydroponic farms. Fix and refurbish electronics. Make art. Share your labour with your neighbour. Invite them over to talk about life. Leave the modern Internet behind.
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1: Martijn Doolaard, and the Emacs philosopher Protesilaos Stavrou have had the greatest influence on me.
I've had this kind of idea when I was thinking about becoming a teacher
that maybe in the future it will be more common to have a split career of, in the 40 hrs work week tradition, manual labor / trade for ~20 hrs/week and a "cognitive" job at like ~20 hrs/week (or however many hours)
This would allow workers to exercise both mind and body
We bought a small homestead 20 months ago. The prior owners only used it for their horses, Nothing had been planted by them. We have slowly been planting fruit trees. We lost a lot due to our drought. I just put in another 20 fruit trees this past weekend. It is good for the soul.
He said he found God and has taking up farming on a Greek island. He is living my fantasy. I don’t agree with the veganism though; the apostles were fishermen and manual laborers. I would think they would appreciate fish and other meat.
He seems not trying to mimic apostles but follow personal reasons not directly tied to religion :
> For reasons of spirituality, morality and health, I stopped eating all animal products (meat, fish, dairy, eggs, etc) adopting instead, the diet of my great grandparents: Plants; local, seasonal and whole.
Loosely related : this documentary brings new and interesting points regarding Jesus’s animals consumption. It stands that todays bible traduction inherits past’s conflicts of interests of monks, but none of the originals clearly depict Jesus encouraging fish, meat or milk consumption - quite the opposite in fact, with a brillant relecture of the cleansing of the Temple.
This is a great read, and, no offense to others, not one I expected to find here.
I think that this path is best; one where you recognize the problem and solve it. He knew he was lost in an occupation that was not good, so he dropped that and found his purpose.
Not everyone can pack up their family and be a farmer in Greece, and even if you can, this path is still not easy. Many others may assume you’ve become lost. Life may seem great like this post and later be difficult.
But it’s great that this person found their purpose and know who they are.
I associate being stuck in the Level 5 or 6 trough that Richard Rohr describes. There is purpose waiting, but I don’t have the guts to do anything more than pretend I’m a good servant while being miserable with what I feel I must do.
It doesn’t matter if I attempt to be stoic and sometimes pull off looking that way, I’m self-obsessed since I wallow in self pity while having a martyr complex, and I can hate myself and diminuate myself as much as I want, to believe that I’m nothing and only God exists, but I couldn’t be more lost than I am and am only fooling myself to believe otherwise.
>I finished reading the Bible. It resonated with me in a way nothing else had before. A mirror was put in front of me and I saw myself clearly for the first time. Finding God, I realized how far I had drifted from the straight and narrow.
I mean, if it makes you happy. The few other I've seen that have made this same radical change, have eventually tumbled down the rabbit hole of cults, anti-vax, and all that. Hopefully that will not be the case here.
Still couldn’t resist making a digital trophy and self important landmark eh?
I’ve had some relatable discoveries about the meaning of life but it’s very different than this back-to-primitive-existence as utopia. Mostly because I have creative talents. I can write and play music. I write a fuck ton better than this guy. He belongs in a field…as do most people on social media, or otherwise “influencing” discourse.
That’s why I muted my socials for quite a while. Doing is better than posting. I’m posting here at 3 am because my sleep cycle is still fuckdd up from jail this is when they woke us in solitary for breakfast. I only was in for a year and not quite out yet for a year. I wonder if this guy will still be of the same perspective 10 years from now. Might want a smoke just for the sake of it…
dejv|1 month ago
I started natural winery at the ripe time when it first started to be popular and managed to miss the wave. It was a great first year after many years of tech grind in big tech hubs. I was waking up late, went for walk where I probably met friend or two who had nothing much to do, so we drink a coffee and talked a bit. Waiting for summer heat to be over, then work in the vineyard till the sun went down and then go to the local pub for beer or four.
I guess it sounds like it was vacation or playing farmer. And that is what it was, really. I did that for couple of years and then moved back to the nearby city and rejoined the startup grind. What I got from this experience is that there are seasons in life and it is great to have an optionality to play with different modes of life. The tech industry will always be there.
I am in my 40s now. Found a wife, got a mortgage and couple of kids. I kept the farm and treated it as a weekend hobby, rented out most of the land and I am slowly building the infrastructure I missed when I started. One day the kids will be old enough and tech will no longer excite me. The season will change, I move back, wake up late, meet with local friends who have nothing much to do during summer heat, work the vineyards and then hit pub when the sun went down.
baxtr|1 month ago
Reminds me when I was a young consultant and couldn't decide whether to take the long planned vacations or start a new high-urgency project. One of my mentors wisely said to me: "Go, there will be always another exciting project." So I went.
Sometimes it's good to step out and see the bigger picture.
theturtlemoves|1 month ago
SSLy|1 month ago
reincarnate0x14|1 month ago
But this is what the classics of stoicism (in the literal sense of both) have been telling us the whole time. We make our own meaning, and money isn't it. Go and grow things. Raise things. Build things.
Civilization is when men plant trees in whose shade they will never sit.
NoBeardMarch|1 month ago
For some, the benefits for society are not as immediately visible as a farmer producing potatoes or corn which he/she can touch with their own hands, but in my personal view my job positions me as a not insignificant cog in a gigantic machine which has genuine benefits for society (and some negative influences, yes).
Some red flags in the linked article. Spirituality and barefoot running, which I do not believe is very evidence based to recommend. My opinion is that anyone working a software engineering office 9-5 should also always be doing strength resistance training and some cardio every single week. This should provide the health benefits needed to survive in what is a sedentary job.
neuralkoi|1 month ago
"If you could see the cabbages I have planted here with my own hands, you surely would never have thought to request this."
ironbound|1 month ago
abc123abc123|1 month ago
Every Web 3.0, leftist, tech bro I ever met, idolize the farmin lifestyle and see before them a hippy commune where free love is practiced.
I never ever seen that, or heard about the leftist tech bro who actually did it.
p410n3|1 month ago
What alwas struck me about dylan araps's software was that the minimalism didnt come from a lack of scope or complexity, but rather the approach to use as much of the tools that were "already there" (at least thats my way to interpret this - i might be wrong). The pure bash bible is describing how to do common tasks in pure bash. Tasks that usually were done with external tools like sed an awk etc. Then later came the pure sh bible, doing the same for POSIX sh and therefore shedding the dependency on bash-isms. This represented to me a chase to go "deeper".
And this part clearly seems to still be a driving force to this day. Farming and producing olive oil and wine by hand, no chemicals no bullshit - that sounds like dylan araps alright. Looking at the website you can also see this spirit everywhere. Go ahead and disable JS on https://wild.gr/wine - the image slider still works. It uses inputs and CSS transforms. Makes the markup ever so slightly more complicated, and future changes ever so slightly more involved (unless the code is generated). But lets not kid ourselves, how often are those kind of web elemts updated?
It is once again a project that excels in "using whats already there" and I personally really like that, and even though I am not rocking KISS linux and DWM anymore, this way of thinking is still with me to this day, and I believe it was taught to me by dylan araps. For that I am thankful!
bschne|1 month ago
I'm going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season."
— from "The Soul of a New Machine" by Tracy Kidder
TrackerFF|1 month ago
Helping people for example is neither farming, nor artisanal, and is quite arguably the least evil and most selfless things one can do. The world needs caregivers, health workers, etc.
I'm not saying that to be mean, not at all. I just find it odd that for someone who has gone through such a spiritual journey/awakening, become a devout Christian even, to then declare all other careers as evil or meaningless. For every ex-white collar professional now LARPing as a micro-farmer, there are tenfold more people not receiving adequate care.
thinkingemote|1 month ago
The meaningless thing is more of an absolute statement however.
A career can do (and even mostly do) good and sometimes unavoidably do evil.
Likewise a career can be (and even mostly be) meaningful and sometimes unavoidably be meaningless at times!
seer_seer_seer|1 month ago
Maybe it’s overreaching, but I like to see it as the writer saying unless your job provides a “good” to world and doesn’t just move bits from one database to another then its a good path.
Theres flaws with that approach too, but one I would give them benefit for.
Dansvidania|1 month ago
I believe it must be something about dedicating oneself to creating something that "does not exist" in a material sense.
My 'farming' has been woodworking: completing the simplest wooden furniture has given me a satisfaction that I do not remember any app or software product ever getting close to causing, despite the fact that I love the work.
neuralkoi|1 month ago
I wanted to change the world and make it better, and it felt good to pursue a career with a high salary and prestige, but after years of working in software I was not seeing my work actually make the world better. In fact it was making me feel sick, tired, and depressed.
There was a short period of time in the 2000s when it did feel like tech was beginning to transform peoples lives and society for the better, but after the algorithms and rougher edges of our collective human nature took it over, it all seems to have drastically changed course.
9rx|1 month ago
By and large those who end up in the software industry are engineers at heart, and therefore want to be engineers, not just software developers.
That's why farming is the oft dreamed of escape. In farming you get to be (and have to be, if you want to remain competitive) a software engineer, mechanical engineer, electrical engineer, structural engineer... and on and on. You get to actually solve problems for what they are instead of trying to force arbitrarily selected tools into searching for a problem.
TomasBM|1 month ago
- You now likely have the money/time to pursue passions you didn't know you have, or would have developed if you didn't pursue software development as intensely.
- Even if you had/have passion for computers, being paid to do something you wouldn't do otherwise can quickly drain that passion.
- We're built for sunlight and exercise, not LED light and sitting, so you may have felt increasing physical discomfort that only the former can alleviate.
- Woodworking and farming were never lucrative enough (or as lucrative as computer work) to convince you to make the switch for money.
stavros|1 month ago
Jobs are, by definition, things you get paid to do, because you wouldn't do them for free. Therefore, by definition, everyone hates their job to some degree. We just have the luxury of leaving.
shaftway|1 month ago
At least with software I can go back and edit my past transgressions.
xandrius|1 month ago
That's why I realised that I really enjoy embedded systems, as they often include a good level of physical world in their architecture. Using ES in a farming setting is even more satisfying because the code could be extremely simple but still make a huge real impact to people. Love that!
nicbou|1 month ago
- Our work feels very abstract and removed from real people in the real world. Sometimes I did not even understand what our product did, or it got axed after a year. Marx's theory of alienation felt very real.
- We can afford to consider other options. It actually feels achievable. Few people have that luxury.
- Many of us had a relatively easy career start, and underestimate how hard other fields are to get into.
- The material world just feels better. Making digital art does not feel as good as watercolours. Carving wood is a much more complex sensation than drawing in autocad. Even paper books feel better. I can't explain why, it's just how it is.
rcruzeiro|1 month ago
I wonder if writers feel the same.
laszlojamf|1 month ago
lukan|1 month ago
This blogpost might generate more profits, but I doubt they are even close to being profitable and have other income/savings.
skibbityboop|1 month ago
Money may not buy happiness buy money buys you all the freedom you could possibly need to do anything that fits your whimsy.
ironbound|1 month ago
jiriknesl|1 month ago
People change countries, partners, careers not because of one book. This is usually the last drop. They were long-term unhappy, yearning for something else.
And as this guy wrote, he was sick, he was burned out. I suppose, he wasn't able to limit his screen time, it was all or nothing. Sometimes, those big changes work better than incremental steps. 20 years ago, I went from a pack of cigarettes a day to zero. If I went to 19, then 18, then 17, I might still smoke to this day.
darkwater|1 month ago
I have an acquaintance - not into IT at all - that did something similar, went to work in a solo eco-farming project (no fertilizers, just let the soil rest, no pesticides obviously, I'm not sure if he went as far as no artificial irrigation either though) and now after a few years he decided he wanted to come back to civilization and he is now working in a factory, in an assembly line.
dbeley|1 month ago
Nition|1 month ago
I thought this was a beautiful statement; something to really help us think about what we're trying to do here on Earth. But personally I would add Artist to this. Painter, sculptor, musician, writer, poet, and so on. We need those too.
Edit: As others have reminded me below, service work like doctor, firefighter, teacher must qualify as well.
NoBeardMarch|1 month ago
A poet needs his pen and paper. Someone needs to man the paper-mills and ink-factories, someone needs to work on logistics and planning issues related to that, infrastructure etc.
It's a completely meaningless statement.
Peroni|1 month ago
theragra|1 month ago
Why I feel this? Because it is a way for people to convince themselves they are pure and kind. People reason that the big bad evil world with evil things and professions can go to hell, and "I won't participate in this". Nice way to lie to yourself.
If you think deeper, you inevitably get a conclusion that if you have talents, you can do real good at a scale. It might be not as fulfilling, and it includes compromises, but amount of good you can do is tenfold or even several orders of magnitude.
In our modern complex world, you can try and see far consequences of your actions or inaction. For example, you can earn western SDE salary, and donate 80% to good causes. It might not be as nice as quiet country life, but it would help a lot of people or animals. That's what my friend is doing. He overdid it, sure, and burned out, but you can always find a balance.
What bothers me is that thing people who downshift into some traditional lifestyle easily do. They somehow feel like 8 billion people can live like that or close to it.
But that will cause insane downgrade of quality of life where it does matter. I'm not talking about consumerism or even experiental consumerism like travel.
Healthcare, child mortality ratez, food safety, and personal safety will be in a downfall without modern institutions, hierarchies and professions. It might be hard and often not fulfilling to be a doctor, or even a programmer. But even programmer can help create things that allow others to connect one with other (internet and phone networks), to get entertainment where options are very limited (games, movies for old people or people with disabilities). For example, my mom uses her smart speaker to provide her music and really enjoys it.
Without it, she barely used CDs because of the friction of buying, storing and inserting it. Same with movies, she now gets to the point where she watches movies on a streaming platform. She eat he'd nothing except TV when we had VCR and DVDs because of the friction of using it.
All this is possible because of some programmers and other IT people. She also enjoys social networks to some extent, and reads stuff in web. Sure, books also do, but she is limited be ause she lives in an area with not many books available in her native language.
Modern civilization has many issues, but still a lot of benefits that are not possible if everybody would be a farmer or an artisan. Also, artisan stuff is too expensive. And same for eco farming.
n4r9|1 month ago
thinkingemote|1 month ago
Some had rich patrons and there were travelling bands of entertainers...
exitb|1 month ago
apsurd|1 month ago
d--b|1 month ago
But then it goes on, the guy is mostly healthier from quitting bad and not-so-bad habits, doing eco-friendly stuff in Greece with his family. It sounds like it worked for him.
This dont-do-evil kind of Christianity is all right.
It's not completely obvious from the post though whether this man embraces the love-thy-neighbor aspect of Christianity. He seems to have this idealistic good-vs-bad view of the world that's typically protestant. And his condescending tone make it sound like whoever doesn't do like he does can rot in hell, cause they deserve it.
spapas82|1 month ago
The thing is that we always sell the product in intermediates that would pack it up and sell it in a much higher price. I don't know of any small producer that sells the product directly to the consumer. This seems like a very big investment and not really sustainable. Are there other people that are doing it?
Could my knowledge as a software engineer help that family business in any way to be more profitable ?
satvikpendem|1 month ago
Something you might be able to code is plugins for these ecommerce sites, if it makes sense for your business. I also used to run a loose leaf tea ecommerce store via Shopify but I imported from producers like your family as you describe, and I wrote one for dynamic pricing for buying from various countries due to their purchasing power being less. It'd calculate their power as well as my thresholds and figure out optimal prices where more people could buy it but wasn't screwing me over too.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46385308, https://www.vidaliaonions.com/
[1] https://miamifruit.org/
elAhmo|1 month ago
Kudos to author for going this path, but it takes a lot of resources to be able to make a move like this, which is not really an option for a large majority of population.
Bairfhionn|1 month ago
It's possible, the market is kind of small I guess but you need to have a product where the customer is happy to pay a premium.
And being a software developer helps because you might have the money to invest?! :)
grunder_advice|1 month ago
gaws|1 month ago
In Silicon Valley fashion: raise VC money to acquire Dylan's farm and either bring him and his family on as acquihires or pay them out.
alexnewman|1 month ago
thatha7777|1 month ago
I'm on a similar path myself, hoping to marry open source and open hardware with farming. Heartfelt congrats to Dylan on finding WILD and the clarity to change course.
ensocode|1 month ago
dbeley|1 month ago
Wishing you all the best for the future, may the Greek weather keep you happy!
cole-k|1 month ago
I saw some mention of the same on the website for the farm. Care to share any recipes? Or even just names of dishes? I quite enjoy foods from the Mediterranean and I'm interested in trying more!
djnaraps|1 month ago
The "dishes" are templates filled in with whatever is available at the time. For instance, when chestnuts are in season they enter soups, casseroles, roasts, salads and on their own drizzled with olive oil and salt. When they finish, something else is in season and the dishes change again.
There's a very brief period of overlap where the staple summer vegetables (tomatoes, eggplants, peppers, zucchini) and chestnuts are available at the same time. These vegetables stuffed with a mix of brown rice and chestnuts and baked in the oven is heavenly.
Instead of thinking about recipes and then obtaining ingredients to make them, start with the ingredients and make it up as you go. Things that are in season together typically go together. We base everything on olive oil, alliums, some sort of legume or grain and seasonal greens, nuts, fruits and vegetables.
My great grandparents didn't follow recipes per se. When they made a soup they used what they had and due to lack of refrigeration and ultra-processing everything they ate was local, seasonal and fresh.
_rwo|1 month ago
overall I don't believe neither extreme is healthy; doing A, then doing 2x the opposite of A because you realize A was not really good for you in the long term
but I'm glad it so far worked out for the author
KK7NIL|1 month ago
Wishing you good luck!
tock|1 month ago
TheCapeGreek|1 month ago
FIRE is a nice idea, but in the pure sense it is really just the idea of deferring the life you really want to live. You might die before you get there.
The fisherman and businessman story come to mind here.
gaws|1 month ago
Not on this timeline. Layoffs abound and jobs are becoming scarce.
mentalgear|1 month ago
Seems shocking at first, but the more you think about what our SWE works does, for whom, and who benefits the most of it ... IMO it makes sense.
ianbutler|1 month ago
Also I inherently disagree with the idea of meaninglessness the author presents there. Meaning is relative to man, man makes meaning. There is no objective meaning and so you have to choose it for yourself.
satvikpendem|1 month ago
nicbou|1 month ago
The author also forgot another path: teacher.
embedding-shape|1 month ago
rekabis|1 month ago
Interesting.
Reading the bible did nothing for me.
Understanding the bible is what turned me into a hard atheist.
I have yet to find anything more irredeemably evil than the god of the Abrahamic religions.
snvzz|1 month ago
This is a pattern that keeps popping up in tech circles.
After brain damage happens, it is too late. Reason is compromised, and religion easily takes root.
We need to focus on stopping burn out before it causes brain damage.
JuniperMesos|1 month ago
> At the time, I wouldn't have called myself an Atheist. Agnostic is not the right word to use either. Not that I believed or didn't believe in the existence of God, in truth, I had simply never thought about it. In place of an answer was lack of the preceding question.
> I finished reading the Bible. It resonated with me in a way nothing else had before. A mirror was put in front of me and I saw myself clearly for the first time. Finding God, I realized how far I had drifted from the straight and narrow. Weak of mind, steeped in sin, ruled by bodily desires and whims of fancy, the life I led could only lead to one place: the broad road alongside the liars, thieves, fornicators, murderers and cheats, for I was one of them.
I'd like to see this person write in detail about specifically what about the Bible they found resonant, and specifically resonant in a way that lead them towards something like a Judeo-Christian understanding of God and sinfulness. I note that they do not mention Jesus Christ, who is the most important figure in the second part of the Bible, and (arguably) entirely absent from the first half - and indeed the schism between Jews who only take the first half of the Bible seriously and Christians who take the second half seriously as well is a pretty important one!
This isn't a troll post on my part, although I admit that I'm somewhat skeptical that this person read the King James Version of the Bible and was specifically convinced by the various writings in that long and complex text that some kind of Judeo-Christian understanding of the nature of God is the correct one. I think it's more likely that they were in some kind of personal spiritual crisis, read the foundational scripture of one of the major world religions, and were moved in a kind of a general way. I suspect that if they were reading books that made more references to the Quran or to Buddhist sutras, they might've found themselves reading the Quran or Buddhist sutras and ended up in a similar mental state. But I'm not sure of that, which is why I'm genuinely curious to hear more about what specifically in the text of the Bible they found meaningful.
pcthrowaway|1 month ago
As someone raised in the Jewish faith, and having spent time also learning about the New Testament and the Quran (though without having read the texts directly), I'm inclined to think Christianity on paper is "the best" of the Abrahamic religions, in that the core messages of Jesus are about forgiveness, nonviolence, and helping one another. These messages are in the Torah and the Quran too, to be clear, but specifically with matters of sexuality, gender, and gender roles, Christianity is the most "forgiving" of people who are non-normative or opposed to those norms in the first place.
I say this as someone who doesn't believe in any religion fwiw, not as a born-again Christian or whatever.
And I also want to be clear that there are progressive interpretations of all religious texts, people of all religious practices can be LGBTQ, poly, drug users. And religion can also be used to justify incredible acts of evil. Christianity was the justification for the Inquisition and the Crusades after all, despite the violence of both certainly going against the teachings of Jesus.
lproven|1 month ago
A valid point.
I'm not interested, myself, but this is an interesting question.
My upbringing was very vaguely Church of England Protestant. I read very fast and read a large chunk of the bible as a child. I decided when I was 11 that religion was a fairy story, just a work of fiction and nothing more, and that I didn't believe in it.
I have read much of the Christian bible, and I was top of the class in religious studies at school. I am confident that I know much more about Christianity than 99% of Christians, and most ex-Christian atheists I know are the same.
For most intelligent adults, actually reading the bible is a leading cause of atheism. This is a meme among atheists.
I have never heard of anyone getting religion from the bible before.
matthewh806|1 month ago
> and no, there's no manifesto decrying the system written from a cabin in the woods
Is a bit unjustified considering you've just written an entire blog post decrying your old "meaningless" existence vs the fulfilment you have in your new life. It comes across a bit holier than thou. As if to imply you're "quietly just getting on with it", which is evidently not the case, as you still feel the need to write about it
cpr|1 month ago
sph|1 month ago
Remarkably similar to the author's, following a massive burnout from work in mid 2020 from which I became a new^Wdifferent person, with a new perspective on life. Three years of therapy later, jailbroken Kindle filled not with the Bible but philosophers and other role models [1]
The eyes of friends and family gloss over when I describe my new goal in life, of finding the tight path between being a computer wiz and finding a life as close to Nature as possible; of finding a community of like-minded people that exist in real life, for someone that grew up and lived all his adult life on the Internet. An Internet of people that keep telling me that urban living and modern technology isn't so bad, that I should stop complaining and schedule another interview that modern tech is "so much fun and comfortable, look at all this money." I do believe we have gone wrong somewhere, I do believe there is a third path between totalitarian techno-optimism and complete rejection of modernity, and perhaps this is the best time in history to explore it, by returning to our roots. Remembering our natural ecosystem which is our home and sustenance. We earn our living in front of a square piece of glass connected to the ether, why the hell would one live packed like a sardine in impersonal and smelly cities? I truly, desperately need to believe in a return to the countryside; to more humane rhythms of living.
My favourite quote is from George Bernard Shaw: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man"
We don't have to abandon all our comforts. And for once the technologists like us can use their brains for the good of humanity and their neighbours, rather than making people click on ads. Go wire solar panels. Build hydroponic farms. Fix and refurbish electronics. Make art. Share your labour with your neighbour. Invite them over to talk about life. Leave the modern Internet behind.
---
1: Martijn Doolaard, and the Emacs philosopher Protesilaos Stavrou have had the greatest influence on me.
erelong|1 month ago
that maybe in the future it will be more common to have a split career of, in the 40 hrs work week tradition, manual labor / trade for ~20 hrs/week and a "cognitive" job at like ~20 hrs/week (or however many hours)
This would allow workers to exercise both mind and body
uslic001|1 month ago
rawgabbit|1 month ago
aziaziazi|1 month ago
> For reasons of spirituality, morality and health, I stopped eating all animal products (meat, fish, dairy, eggs, etc) adopting instead, the diet of my great grandparents: Plants; local, seasonal and whole.
Loosely related : this documentary brings new and interesting points regarding Jesus’s animals consumption. It stands that todays bible traduction inherits past’s conflicts of interests of monks, but none of the originals clearly depict Jesus encouraging fish, meat or milk consumption - quite the opposite in fact, with a brillant relecture of the cleansing of the Temple.
Christspiracy: https://m.imdb.com/fr/title/tt29630794/
keybored|1 month ago
whamsy|1 month ago
I think that this path is best; one where you recognize the problem and solve it. He knew he was lost in an occupation that was not good, so he dropped that and found his purpose.
Not everyone can pack up their family and be a farmer in Greece, and even if you can, this path is still not easy. Many others may assume you’ve become lost. Life may seem great like this post and later be difficult.
But it’s great that this person found their purpose and know who they are.
I associate being stuck in the Level 5 or 6 trough that Richard Rohr describes. There is purpose waiting, but I don’t have the guts to do anything more than pretend I’m a good servant while being miserable with what I feel I must do.
It doesn’t matter if I attempt to be stoic and sometimes pull off looking that way, I’m self-obsessed since I wallow in self pity while having a martyr complex, and I can hate myself and diminuate myself as much as I want, to believe that I’m nothing and only God exists, but I couldn’t be more lost than I am and am only fooling myself to believe otherwise.
ngruhn|1 month ago
JK I think he means it ;)
qweqweqwe1|1 month ago
ahahahahahahahah
effnorwood|1 month ago
yownie|1 month ago
tonnydourado|1 month ago
brachkow|1 month ago
TrackerFF|1 month ago
unknown|1 month ago
[deleted]
6stringmerc|1 month ago
I’ve had some relatable discoveries about the meaning of life but it’s very different than this back-to-primitive-existence as utopia. Mostly because I have creative talents. I can write and play music. I write a fuck ton better than this guy. He belongs in a field…as do most people on social media, or otherwise “influencing” discourse.
That’s why I muted my socials for quite a while. Doing is better than posting. I’m posting here at 3 am because my sleep cycle is still fuckdd up from jail this is when they woke us in solitary for breakfast. I only was in for a year and not quite out yet for a year. I wonder if this guy will still be of the same perspective 10 years from now. Might want a smoke just for the sake of it…