[andrewvc]

For an idea as to how this gets translated into the reality on the ground here in Minneapolis this is an article on what’s going on from the main newspaper in the state.

> In the past week alone, ICE boxed in a Woodbury real estate agent recording their movements from his car, slammed him to the ground and detained him at the Whipple Federal Building near Fort Snelling for 10 hours. A 51-year-old teacher patrolling the Nokomis East community told the Star Tribune she was run off the road into a snowbank by ICE for laying on her horn. Officers shattered the car window of a woman attempting to drive past a raid in south Minneapolis to get to a doctor’s appointment nearby, then carried her through the street. Feds pushed an unidentified motorist through a red light into a busy intersection, reportedly fired projectiles at a pedestrian walking “too slowly” in a crosswalk and shoved Minneapolis City Council President Elliott Payne while he was observing their actions from a public sidewalk.

You can read the full thing here: https://www.startribune.com/have-yall-not-learned-federal-ag...

[embedding-shape]

If all those things happened in Spain where I live, I'm 99% we'd have actual riots on the streets, together with a lot of other unpleasant-but-needed civilian action, until things got better, like we've done in the past (sometimes maybe went slightly overboard with it, but better than nothing).

Why are Americans so passive? You're literally transitioning into straight up authoritarianism, yet where are the riots? How are you not fighting back with more than whistles and blocking them in cars? Is there more stuff actually happening on the ground, but there simply isn't any videos of it, or are people really this passive in the land of the free?

Are people inside the country not getting the same news we're getting on the outside? Are you not witnessing your government carrying out extra-judicial murders and then being protected by that same government? I'm really lost trying to understand how the average person (like you reading this) isn't out on the streets trying to defend what I thought your country was all about.

[asa400]

First, all of what you say is true. I'm going to try to add a little context as someone who is here on the ground, in the city in question.

There is the imminent threat of mass death, and no one here is under any illusions about it.

Every ICE agent is armed, and most have ready access to automatic weapons. These are not well-trained members of an elite organization with a storied, patriotic culture. ICE is a personalist paramilitary organization, and the president has indicated that these ICE agents are immune from consequences, even if they kill people. These are people who volunteered knowing they were going to go into American cities and do violence to people they perceive as their political enemies.

Most of these agents are inexperienced, jittery, poorly trained new recruits away from home. They aren't locals. Their nexus of power and governance isn't local. These are not our community members, they aren't from here, they don't know us or care about us, so they do not empathize with us.

In addition to this, the American citizenry is shockingly well armed. Because everyone involved is so well armed, everybody is slightly touchy about this descending into rioting, because there is a very short path from light rioting to what would essentially amount to civil war. The costs of such any such violence will overwhelmingly be borne by the innocent people who live here, and we know it.

So, people are trying to strike a balance of making sure these people know they aren't welcome here while trying to prevent the situation from spiraling into one in which some terrified agent mag-dumps a crowd of protestors and causes a chain reaction that results in truly catastrophic mass death.

Wish us luck, we're trying.

[rybosworld]

> Why are Americans so passive?

I think it's important to realize how divided the U.S. is right now. Half the country is in favor of what ICE is doing in some form or another. Some people on the right are denouncing the _way_ ICE is accomplishing this. But they are far from outraged.

The other half of the country is as dumbfounded/shocked as the rest of the world.

This isn't like the French revolution where a majority of the country was suffering and rose up against the few.

This is very nearly 50% of the country wants to make the other 50% squirm.

It cannot be understated the role that Fox News has played to get us to this level of division.

The channel "The Necessary Conversation" has some good examples of just how radicalized some American's have gotten. It's 2 kids interviewing their MAGA parents. I think it's not uncommon for American's to know people like the parents in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hSysuwHw4KU

[webstrand]

This is anecdotal, America is geographically quite large. For a lot of people, where these events are happening are more than a days drive away (10 hours or more), it's not happening "here".

A lot of people here _enjoy_ the authoritarianism, judging by the votes, the voter turnout, and the private discussions I've had with my neighbors. They believe this is good for the country and that there'll be more opportunities for their kids.

A lot of other people are holding out for the midterm elections, to see if the will of the majority shifts, because otherwise its risks open civil war. And maybe just a touch of American exceptionalism—this can't actually be happening here, it'll all blow over—and distrust in the story that the media is feeding them is accurate.

And some are just fatalistic, this isn't really a surprising turn of events. America has been creeping toward this for more than a few decades, since Regan at the very least.

[afavour]

A broad answer: because America is more violent. The ICE officers are armed and absolutely will use their weapons if given half a chance to. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think any rioters in countries like Spain go to a protest with a bet real chance on their minds that they might die.

[lux-lux-lux]

We had nationwide riots for months back in 2020 over a police officer murdering a suspect, and that resulted in approximately zero actual political change. During the recent shutdown over the budget, we had one of the largest protests in the country’s history and massive shifts towards the opposition in elections followed by them immediately folding in exchange for essentially nothing.

The political class is very well insulated from the popular will in this country, and I fear we may be nearing the boiling point.

[agubelu]

I'd say a couple of reasons:

- The American political system has been very successful in telling its people that the only acceptable way to show discontent and enact change is by voting on elections.

- Lots of people are okay with it because it can only happen to the "bad guys", and why would it ever happen to them since they're the "good guys"... right?

[reaperducer]

I'm 99% we'd have actual riots on the streets

A riot is exactly what they want.

This is all about getting locals upset enough to break things, so the administration can justify sending in the military.

Rioting just gives them what they want.

This is a tried-and-true tactic employed by thugs throughout history.

[QuantumGood]

You need to specify what you mean by "more than". Last night ICE agents were attacked with shovels, injuring one. A man was shot.

BEFORE this began we had 7 million people protesting simultaneously nationwide—they are "out on the street" as you put it. With protests around the country every day. Minneapolis has organized hundreds into rapid response teams against ICE. The killings get more news than the protests, particularly as much of the media has been bought up by republican owners. You seem to be missing the news, and saying it does not exist.

In Philadelphia, residents are being filmed patrolling with automatic weapons in advance of ICE supposedly heading there next. Read what @asa400, another local like myself, is saying in another comment to parent.

Many locals on social media are cheering on the shootings. America is incredibly polarized right now. It's not like all the public is against the government. Nearly half of those most likely to vote in past elections support this.

[pear01]

You should read James Baldwin. Or read up on the debates post revolutionary war in the United States about the French revolution.

The truth is the land of the free has always been quite conservative. Which frankly, is true of most societies. In many ways that's what a society is.

Worse still, ICE stomping people out in the street is what freedom means to a vast swath of Americans. The rest are scared and leaderless and let down by an opposition that betrays their trust at every turn.

And yes Europeans keep telling Americans how to protest, but really they are little better. "Far right" candidates are already projecting big wins in the UK today. To say nothing of the victories far right parties have already secured in Europe. Spain is more familiar with blatant facisim and totalitarianism than Americans are. So idk... imo Europeans really pat themselves on the back too much... what would you do?

Provoking a riot is of questionable value anyway when he won a pretty convincing national victory at the polls just a year ago... no one has any answers as far as I can see, only empty expressions of anger... protest harder means what? I think a better start would be a coherent, defensible list of demands than anyone from a governor to a street activist can convey intelligently. Then you can try to enforce it.

But ultimately you can't muster more force than the state. If that is your only suggestion then it's a fruitless one.

[montjoy]

> Why are Americans so passive?

Because it’s cold? Here in Minnesota it’s 17F / -7C. Factoring in the wind chill it feels like 7F / -14C.

There are other reasons too of course (geography, lack of urban density, distrust of news, apathy, etc etc) but I think the weather is a definite factor right now.

[breakpointalpha]

American life is so much more distributed than European life.

Population density and the gigantic geographic distance make these kinds of events feel "remote" even if they are happening in our same state.

It's a 17 hour drive from Atlanta, Georgia to Minneapolis for example.

On top of that, a lot of Americans are just barely surviving financially, so they are in full bunker mode just making rent.

It's a scary time to rebel.

[deeg]

Americans have had 100 years of stable government and in the past political solutions have eventually been enacted. The Civil Rights bill was passed. Nixon pulled out of Vietnam. I think a lot of people are still expecting sanity to return. I hope they're right.

[guest__user]

American here; studied and lived in France and participated in some big protests there. The US just doesn't have the protest/strike culture that Europe has, it's not part of our tradition; the majority of people don't even know how or understand the implications...Also most cities in the US are built for cars , not pedestrians and people on the street.

[andoando]

Imo, there is too much of an individualistic culture here. Where I am people live for twenty years and barely even know their neighbors.

[grunder_advice]

Yep, in all EU countries, this would lead to country wide protests with the usual result being the fall of the government and new elections. Seems like the US is missing this element of democracy.

[throwaway853578]

Because I have a kid to take care of. A job I need to keep, and a way of life I'd like to maintain. Because it's not happening where I live (yet).

I care about people but I don't give a fuck about my country. It's just a place to live. If it gets too bad I'll move my family elsewhere.

Also, this whole checks and balances thing we learned about in school will surely kick in sometime soon...

[cael450]

A shocking number of Americans not only think all of this is great, but they wish it was them out there shooting their neighbors.

[spit2wind]

Americans are not passive. Look at the videos of any of these incidents. People are supporting those under attack, collecting evidence, and protesting. The message is clear.

Peaceful protest is the key. Riots, violence, and fighting are not peaceful and only play into the administration's aims.

When Americans resist and protest peacefully, as they have been in the largest numbers ever in the country's history, it exposes the brutality and baseness of those commiting the heinous acts.

Through such peaceful protest as we see, America will overcome this.

The big question is, what next? How to hold people accountable, fairly, while rebuilding the system and rebuilding trust?

[yawboakye]

spain isn’t a great example here. it has some of the most racist fans football has ever seen and yet there’s no action. only italy probably compares. if there was a government agency going after black and brown people (ie non-white) i wouldn’t bet on the spanish population to come to their rescue. lamine yamal, a young footballer of moroccan descent hasn’t been spared the vitriol of the spanish hooligans even though he was top 3 best player at the recent euro (where he helped spain to victory).

point being, given that ice is going after non-whites and is getting by, a spanish ice will get by too, with probably more ease.

[__MatrixMan__]

You're just describing a recipe for agents opening fire into a crowd. The opposition is doing it right: demonstrate to ICE that they're nonviolent, well coordinated, and much more numerous.

If violence is warranted, the time and place for it is not when they're all together, armed to the teeth, and looking for a fight. It's when they're off duty, alone, and not expecting a confrontation.

[lesostep]

I remember 5 years ago americans said same things about russian civil unrest. No grand penalty for violent rioting, you can get off with just prison time!

There is a vast difference between believing that your nation would riot hard and having to risk your own life knowing that your loved ones that would be devastated if something happens.

[xyzelement]

I think it's something different than "Americans are passive" - rather, many of them/us perceive the context of what you're seeing very differently. I can share some of this perspective though I don't insist it's the only way to feel.

1. Americans on the ground are clearly feeling the effects of illegal immigration. As an example: a an African American janitor in our kids' school voted republican in 2024 for the first time in his life, because the park in his Brooklyn neighborhood has become a shanty town and he can't work out there. In that election we've seen nearly every demographic move more republican than before, and I think this is the key issue for them.

2. In that context, when ICE does something, even when we don't like it, people can understand it in the context of a larger problem they/we want solved. When you perceive "passivity" - it's because you come in from a perspective of not wanting the underlying problem solved which is fine, but it's different for people who like "what" is happening even if not "how" it's happening.

3. There are plenty of people protesting and violently rioting if that's what they feel like.

[zahlman]

> Why are Americans so passive? You're literally transitioning into straight up authoritarianism, yet where are the riots?

In the same place. You just aren't seeing footage of them on HN.

> Is there more stuff actually happening on the ground

There is, and there is lots of video of it. You only need search elsewhere.

I have seen such footage. It's all over the place. I've cited examples of what I've seen in other comments. You can infer keyword search terms from the descriptions and should be able to find them readily with any search engine.

> Are you not witnessing your government carrying out extra-judicial murders and then being protected by that same government?

They are not "extra-judicial murders". The only people who have died so far have been those whose actions presented a serious threat to the life or safety of federal officers.

Anyone who disagrees with my claim is welcome to provide contradictory evidence.

[biophysboy]

To be fair, Minneapolis is raising hell and has been for the last week. There have been many protests in other cities as well.

I would also say that Trump and his cronies would absolutely love if this boils over into a violent riot. That would give them permission to double down.

[casey2]

I'm guessing that the lady laying on her horn protesting ICE doesn't have many (or any) close friends/family

[v0id24]

Why then don't people unite against the dominance of not very friendly and culturally alien migrants, Muslims?

[aaronbrethorst]

We don't have the memory of the end of an authoritarian regime only fifty years in our past.

[jajuuka]

Isn't the same true of in the EU though? Immigrants and refugees from Syria were treated quite harshly and has led to a significant rise in far right parties across Europe. These parties are actively harassing immigrants and non-white groups. But there doesn't seem to be riots in the streets over it.

It's almost flipped how the US and Europe have dealt with threats. The US has a long history of organized hate groups having the run of things. I don't Europe has experienced anything like the KKK for as long. However Europe is not far removed from fascist and authoritarian regimes. So things are more fresh in the minds of citizens and they are more likely to fight them. However when attacked through another method it subverts that and allows tacit approval from the public while their neighborhoods are transformed for the worse.

[blactuary]

We're not passive, they would shoot us in the head

[QuadmasterXLII]

Americans aren't passive: we actively did this. The rioters are in the masks and uniforms. We went so far out of our way to arrive at this godforsaken idiot collapse.

[jasondigitized]

Y'all got guns over there?

[goatlover]

Minneapolis mayor told protestors to remain peaceful. The Democrats always want to follow the rules even when the other side has abandoned them. To be fair to Mayor Frye though, Trump wants to provoke rioting to invoke the Insurrection Act, which he threatened to do today if the Democratic officials don't "fall in line". So there is that.

[_DeadFred_]

Not attacking you OP, but oh look, the top comment again concern trolling the topic to something else less inconvenient. It's wild how common that is on HN.

Basically we Americans have given up on our system. Both on the left and the right. It's why the right elected Trump, and it's why the left silently elected Trump by not voting.

[potsandpans]

Americans aren't passive. 40% of the people are openly fascist and support this.

Just look at this site as a sample set.

[cogman10]

> Why are Americans so passive?

Decades of copaganda paired with police brutality. A fairly large portion of americans view anyone with a badge as "the good guy" by default.

But, I think people are also fearful about what happens after the riots start. Nobody is excited about Trump using a riot as an excuse to declare martial law and deploy the military everywhere. There's still some hope that cities and states will step up and do their job. These ICE agents can and should be prosecuted.

> Are people inside the country not getting the same news we're getting on the outside?

They aren't. And unfortunately a LOT of US media is sanewashing. We have dedicated channels like fox news which are basically framing everything as "violent protesters attacking the police for trying to arrest bad guys". But even centrist and slightly left mainstream media is bending over backwards to give excuses and "both sides" this. Doing things like using a lot of passive language or just not reporting on the raids all together. You basically need to be online or tuned in to alternative media to learn about this stuff.

There's also the very simple and real fact that fascists already have the power. People are scared. There's about 30% of the citizenship who could literally drive a car through a protest or open up fire who'd be completely protected by the state for those actions. Most of the people that'd do that are already employed by ICE.

[m0llusk]

There are a lot of differences. Americans are not being passive. For one thing, reasonable or not there is still a lot of faith in the election process and many are expecting all this craziness will put Republicans on a back seat for decades. For another, these ICE groups are well armed and operate in numbers. Many Americans are also armed and have deep misgivings about political violence and where this is headed. Where you see "passive" many of us see "knife edge". Also, many live staying busy and near exhaustion to start with and have trouble coming to grips with just how bad this is as no one has ever shown this much contempt for laws without consequences. There is an expectation that the constitution will hold any test. And those following closely understand that just about everything Trump has done including tariffs are illegal and the courts are closing in.

Worth mentioning that America does not have a protest culture like Europe. Being largely rural makes gathering for political expression impractical, and in this particular case Trump and his militias are deliberately trying to stir up chaos in order to rationalize cranking up the pressure. Protests make noise and get you targeted but what is needed now is real change.

[botanrice]

man honestly all this stuff pisses me off but I'm just trying to survive over here in my own life. Got friends from all over but no one is really ready to put their life on the line. Like, most disagree with Trump's agenda, many find it offensive, but bottom line is staying healthy, finding work, paying bills, taking care of ppl immediately around you is more important.

Truth is, lots of Americans are really divorced from the reality undocumented immigrants are facing right now. Lots of immigrants from 10-15+ years ago aren't worried if they are law abiding (anecdotal). The online rhetoric rly doesn't match daily life in my most places aside from the active hotbeds.

[shlip]

    First they came for the Communists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Communist

    Then they came for the Socialists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Socialist

    Then they came for the trade unionists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a trade unionist

    Then they came for the Jews
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Jew

    Then they came for me
    And there was no one left
    To speak out for me

-- Martin Niemöller

[anaisbetts]

A pervasive "Someone needs to do something!!!" attitude is why. Americans will forever wait for the school principal to come and get everyone into trouble

[jalapenoh]

Americans have wanted the border fixed for around a century.

[throw0101d]

Some folks have observed that the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, and other established far-right groups aren't marching as much recently:

> “How many pardoned January 6th insurrectionists have been hired by your respective departments?” Raskin (D-Md.), ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee, asked the two officials [Bondi and Noem].

* https://www.commondreams.org/news/ice-agents-january-6

[lokar]

Waving signs, yelling and filming is not obstruction

[LastTrain]

^ This troll apparently likes federal law enforcement wearing masks.

[t-3]

Police don't deserve "respect" for being police. They don't get to shoot or brutalize people for "disrespecting" them. They are servants of the people and should humble themselves appropriately and act with that consciousness, not act as though they are noble beings superior to other men, not beholden to earthly law.

[biophysboy]

Why should civilians respect federal LEOs when they detain citizens, who have committed no crimes, under the pretense of immigration enforcement? Why does the lack of respect for LEOs justify beating non-violent civilians, smashing into their cars, randomly shooting pepper spray and tear gas, and raiding homes without a warrant?

[willmarch]

Deserve what exactly? Should people respect unconstitutional actions by LEOs?

[jr-throw]

The perspective that is constantly missing from these one-sided ICE threads on HN and Reddit (but often exposed in videos after the fact): What are the civilians/protesters actually doing in these situations?

This kind of "I'm a sovereign citizen, you can't touch me" behavior used to be rightfully belittled by the same crowd only a few years ago.

[ceejayoz]

> A member of Governor Walz’s staff

> Grove's departure from state government

Pick one!

[shrubble]

A person who believes the above examples should try to find the videos or other details of each case in order to be sure they are being told the truth.

Assuming that the “carried the woman through the street” is the same case as the video I watched, she was clearly deliberately obstructing traffic, as she wasn’t continuing to drive down the street despite the road being clear with no vehicles ahead of her. She then is removed from the car by force and refuses to move, requiring her to be carried.

[andrewvc]

I’m here in the ground, I’ve seen them detain people for no cause. Masked agents grabbing guys out of a Home Depot parking lot and throwing them in a van only to drop them off later after scaring them. No charges.

Maybe you’ll be lucky enough to get picked up so you can get your proof.

[watwut]

> she was clearly deliberately obstructing traffic,

You are lying. She waited for the pedestrian to cross.

Also, obstructing traffic is not valid reason to be violent against someone. ICE or cops being violent in that situation is them abusing their power big time. So, again, we are back to Brownshirts comparison.

[zahlman]

It's bizarre to me that your comment was flagged and killed (here's a vouch). You see what you see in the video. There is nothing about your comment that violates HN guidelines. On the other hand, rhetoric about "lying" and "fascist assholes" is clearly not in the spirit of constructive dialog.

Other people here seem to think that "obstructing" something entails making it impossible to get around. That is just... not how that language ordinarily works. They also misrepresent your argument, skipping all the steps in between, as if you were asserting that people are being shot directly as a punishment for obstructing traffic. That's clearly not what anyone is saying or justifying, including the officers themselves.

[justonceokay]

Yeah probably is all just made up seems like good guys /s

[brightball]

Is there video for any of that?

[LastTrain]

If there is proof of it would it change your mind about anything?

[numbsafari]

Tons

[karlshea]

Yes

[CGMthrowaway]

  - ICE boxed in a Woodbury real estate agent recording their movements
  - She was run off the road into a snowbank by ICE for laying on her horn
  - A woman attempting to drive past a raid
  - Feds pushed an unidentified motorist through a red light
  - Fired projectiles at a pedestrian walking “too slowly”

Where does the Palantir app come into any of these stories?