[melenaboija]

> Then I think you see an early indication not just of electric car dominance, but of the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power.

It’s done man. Americans are stuck in ICE engines because they’ve been told they’re “car enthusiasts” while the Chinese have been developing EV technology for years. Meanwhile, European makers are stuck not knowing what to do, make Americans happy or compete with the Chinese. The result: nothing has been done properly. And let’s be real, “car enthusiasts” are going to disappear in one or two generations. Practicality beats enthusiasm for 95% of car use.

[CalRobert]

Perhaps people in the future will visit the US for the dieselpunk nostalgia, the same way people like seeing classic cars in Cuba.

[psychoslave]

I strongly doubt any current car will stand longevity of those cars. The maintenance entry cost of anything with integrated electronic is just several order of magnitude in complexity.

[thrance]

Ain't gonna be any diesel in the future. Peak oil has passed, now it's only going downhill.

[joe_mamba]

Feels bad faith to shit on people from your ivory tower, just because they can't afford to ditch their reliable beaters and buy a new car. Have you seen wage growth vs car price increases lately? Not everyone is on a remote six figure US tech job. Try to view and judge things from outside your bubble as well.

I'd also dump my ol reliable ICE car that's now probably worth less than a fancy electric bicycle, if someone just gave me an EV for free ;)

But since I'm poor and can't afford EV prices with decent range, nor can I afford a home with a parking place with charger, then ICE it is. European here btw, not american.

[pear01]

Yes, not to mention the fact that Chinese EVs can't be sold here... protectionism for weak American companies that can't compete globally. We've gone from an automotive superpower and the land of Henry Ford to the government propping up automakers and depriving Americans of free choice. If Chinese cars would actually be allowed to sold here they would sell like Toyota Camrys.

[nostromo]

Until very recently, tariffs on American cars sold in China were much higher than vice-versa. The new US tariffs were an attempt to even the playing field.

I think most people would agree that no tariffs would be good, but China is more protectionist than any other major economy, including recent changes in US policy.

[nielsbot]

Interesting that Canada agreed to break with the US on EV tariffs.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46648778

It's limited but I feel like Canada aligning themselves at all with China over the US is an interesting development.

[samiv]

This is the outcome when your corporations bow down to wall Street. Tax payers money is just used to prop up their private profits and without exposing them to the actual competition. Short term profit seeking. Who foots the bill, the US tax payer who have to pay for the corporate profits and drive overpriced underperforming vehicles.

[ekianjo]

Protecting automakers can be considered a vital business for national security. This is not good for consumers, but relying on China for everything also carries many risks.

[aryonoco]

Car enthusiast here. I raced in Formula Ford in Europe in my younger days. I still dream about the day I drove a 911 GT2. Nearly every car I’ve ever owned has been a manual.

But with the ridiculous tax incentives here in Australia (at least while they last), my new car turned out to be an EV. Specifically the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N. And let me tell you, while the logical part of my brain knows that the gear shifts and the exhaust notes and everything about it is “fake”, when I’m driving it around a track or a challenging B road, every part of my body is fooled into thinking it’s real. And reluctant as I might be to admit it, it might just be the most fun car I’ve ever had

Is it perfect? No. I wish it was 10cm lower to the ground. I wish it was at least 600kg lighter. But it has completely disabused me of the notion that electric cars can’t be fun.

[pjc50]

The Ioniq 5N is extremely funny on paper. It's not wildly expensive, nor is it greatly modified from stock, but the engineers decided to just completely overspec the torque on what is otherwise an ordinary family car. So you get a 0-60 time of about three seconds.

I'm slightly surprised there aren't more cheap electric "hot hatches", but I think that market is dead even in ICE cars - young people don't have much free cash, aren't interested, and the insurers won't let them either.

[bwv848]

And that’s based on a family car platform—wait until you drive something more purpose-built. Take a look at the Renault 5 Turbo E, the work-in-progress electric A110 and 718, or the more affordable SC01. Fun EVs are definitely coming in the next 5 to 10 years.

[costcopizza]

I can 100% confidently say the average US buyer is not an auto enthusiast. Cars are appliances to the vast majority of people here.

There are multiple other factors for the relatively low adoption of EVs compared to China.

[dredmorbius]

Automobile buyers who buy American or European cars are more likely to be auto enthusiasts.

Then there's the utility / practical / recreational crowd who goes for SUVs and pickup trucks.

Those whose primary aim is utility are already in (non-EU) foreign markets or used. Those are invisible to new-car US/EU sales.

It's a classic Innovators Dilemma dynamic (Clayton Christensen), where chasing higher-end market niches torpedoes development of disruptive tech within the same firm.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma>

[bluedino]

> I can 100% confidently say the average US buyer is not an auto enthusiast. Cars are appliances to the vast majority of people here.

Only like 1-2% of new cars are manual transmission here. A lot of the enthusiast market complains that everything is an automatic these days, even high end sports cars.

[Night_Thastus]

Auto enthusiasts no, but cars are definitely not appliances in the US.

Cars are a way people mark their social status - whether they will admit it or not. A big, luxurious SUV with a small mountain of space, the latest tech, etc is not an 'appliance'. It's a luxury people are choosing to buy.

The difference is in priorities. Americans wanted a very different kind of car than China is/was making.

[gtowey]

They are in the sense that most of them are buying cars that represent their identity. For example nearly every pick up truck is an "auto enthusiast", because almost none of them are used for their primary purpose more than a few times mes a year.

[thatcat]

Many Americans base their identity off that appliance though, buying big trucks to drive around the suburbs and commute in. It needs to go vroom, so no e trucks allowed. I'd say it's more like a form of narcissism than enthusiasm.

[MiiMe19]

Explain to me why I should want an electric car?

[surajrmal]

EVs are sold as a luxury product in the US. ICE cars are familiar, convenient (no need to figure out how to install a home charger), and otter cheaper (lower initial cost, service is cheaper, value maintains for much longer, etc). I bought electric, but I recognize it's a privilege to be able to do so.

If competitively priced EVs hit the market, consumers would buy them in much bigger numbers. Manufacturers want to use EVs as a way to redefine themselves and make more money and seemingly the industry is colluding to keep them premium with a shorter shelf life.

[wiseowise]

I'm a "car enthusiast" and even I understand that holding onto ICE is like holding onto horses because cowboys look cool. It is a distilled macho culture like those old Marlboro ads.

[bluGill]

I have a lot of ICEs - they are collectors items I keep in the shed unless there is a parade. My EVs are the daily drivers, not as fun, but more practical.

The above isn't quite true - there are some "daily" ICEs yet because EVs aren't in all niches and I don't replace things instantly even if they were. The idea is the future that is coming closer and closer to reality.

[NetMageSCW]

You are wrong - it is like holding onto horses because cars require carrying a mechanic to get anywhere. BEVs aren’t ready for every use and every place and every one in the US by at least a decade, so keeping an ICE / buying one today is the pragmatic choice.

[speeder]

I am in Portugal right now. You know something we don’t have often here? Garages.

For example in my neighborhood most cars are parallel parked, people are living in centuries old houses converted into high density condos, there are no garages.

So what is more practical, charging your car overnight without an electric plug or going to the gas station for a few minutes?

[gambiting]

>>So what is more practical, charging your car overnight without an electric plug or going to the gas station for a few minutes?

100x charging your car overnight with a plug. I don't think people who don't own an EV realize how great that is. Imagine if your petrol car magically got refilled with fuel every single night - add up all of those "few minutes" spent at a petrol station over your lifetime, and realize how much time you're getting back.

>> people are living in centuries old houses converted into high density condos, there are no garages

And yeah, that's a problem everywhere, not just in Portugal. Here in the UK a lot of people wouldn't have anywhere to charge at home.

[jasoncartwright]

You use kerbside charging. Unlike petrol, electricity comes to you.

[muzani]

I do have a garage and 'fuel' is half the cost of my previous, smaller ICE. We're considering solar power to get it practically free.

There's some nicer differences like leaving the air-conditioning on constantly because there's no pollution and it's also practically free. It's nice to have a giant battery instead of requiring an engine to constantly recharge it to run the electronics.

[tirant]

With batteries reaching 800-1000km per charge and most people doing around 30km a day of driving (way less for people living in dense areas), you basically only need to charge your car once every two weeks.

[tobyhinloopen]

EU automaters fail at making modern cars. They just put a bunch of screens in there with awful software. If you go all screens, just commit like Tesla. If you can't beat Tesla, just stick with minimal screens and use buttons.

Somewhere between 2010 and 2020, most automakers went crazy with their designs and it went all downhill from there.

[quantum_magpie]

I have a 2020 Fiat 500 Abarth, and it is absolutely perfect: There is a screen (I think 7") for Android Auto/CarPlay/radio/nav, and every single other function in the car has a physical button. It is also absolutely gorgeous - pinnacle of design, IMO

[jansper39]

From this year all EU cars will have physical buttons for heater controls, media etc.

[epolanski]

Not sure why would you think EU automakers fail at making modern cars, also, you're generalizing 40+ car automakers in one basket.

[fooker]

> And let’s be real, “car enthusiasts” are going to disappear in one or two generations.

Not sure if you have realized this, but we have a pretty decent numbers of horse enthusiasts now.

[onion2k]

Sure, but compared to an era when horses were used as a practical form of transport the number is effectively zero. Horses are a novelty that wealthy people play with. ICE cars will go the same way.

[sambapa]

Maybe you’re the kind of person who believes the glass is always full if you can make the glass arbitrarily small.

[samiv]

This is exactly so. Not only is the USA hurting itself by distancing itself from it's former allys in policy and trade but it's forcing the rest of the world including EU to look more towards east for trade partners and temporarily for military support until Germany rearms itself.

Canadians already took the lead and are now taking steps to let Chinese EV manufacturers into the Canadian markets with less tax/tariff.

Meanwhile Europe is still struggling a lot with coming to terms with new world order. They've been sucking up to the USA too long since the WW2. German economy is largely dependant on car manufacturing and China is threatening this. But something is going to have to give now.

[dv_dt]

Are you talking about ICE car enthusiasts only? For general car modders and enthusiasts, it may take a few more generations of production releases before more crop up, but I think more EV car enthusiasts will emerge after more and lower cost EV powered systems come out from factory systems optimized for higher volume. With that sheer amount of gear accessible over time, custom makers and mod products will find ways to modify and reassemble it.

[bartread]

I get the impression that what the Chinese want out of a car is different and, realistically, a bit more aligned with the trajectory of human progress as well.

I remember the (UK) Top Gear episode, which I'd guess must be at least 15 years old now, where they were talking about Chinese car brands, like Roewe, and they were ripping on them for being a bit crap in various ways (performance, not that fun to drive, etc.), but they also highlighted that what's important to Chinese car buyers is equipment level and having the latest tech[0] so, even though the cars at the time weren't the best, they were packed with gadgets and creature comfort.

Add 15 years of rapid progress onto that and it's not surprising that China is dominating in the EV space, because it aligns so well with what Chinese buyers might be looking for in a vehicle.

[0] And having seen what traffic jams in Chinese cities can look like it entirely makes sense to optimise for comfort and engagement whilst sitting still or in stop go traffic, than for driving experience when you're never really going to experience the handling anyway.

[m463]

> Americans are stuck in ICE engines because they’ve been told they’re “car enthusiasts”

actually I think there are two strange things going on.

Tesla has completely dominated acceleration vs ice cars. The model S can dor 0-60 in (admittedly fudged) 1.99 seconds. The model 3 performance has 500 or 600 horsepower.

This has created lots of EV enthusiasts.

BUT - they have also been screwing things up.

By taking away displays like the dashboard in model 3, or controls like drive select, turn signals and putting everything on the touchscreen... there's a really terrible UI. Who can be an enthusiast without being part of the car control equation?

[englishspot]

as a wannabe "car enthusiast", I'd happily buy a fun EV if one existed for a reasonable price. the xiaomi su7 for example looks incredible, and I'd jump on that if sold here in the US in a heartbeat.

but for the majority of people, yeah, I don't think they really care either way. if we had the infrastructure and EVs were sold at the prices that people are seeing for the Chinese EVs, I think they'd switch away from ICE fairly easily.

[ge96]

I want that throaty Lotus Exige shame only 260s legal in US. No electric for me not because I'm against it but I love that sound, real sound. I know Tesla Plaid can do 0-60 in 1.9 but so can Corvette C8. Not that Exige is that powerful but it's a sexy car.

This is awesome to me https://youtu.be/0c9prOTdp_M?si=r0q3vqohdVNw7HpF&t=181

[ejoso]

How many generations are we even into cars?

Maybe 4ish? Most kids alive but not yet driving are likely to own only hybrid ma or electrics.

Seems like a relatively short term problem overall.

[guywithahat]

The top selling vehicle in the world is a US EV? I think we're behind the point where all vehicles can be EV's, we still need ICE for certain things, but the US is arguably the only other country in the world where we produce EV's competitive with China

[NetMageSCW]

Car enthusiasts never disappear, but they will be a small part of the market just like always.

[hydrogen7800]

Maybe it's naive of me, but I think the enthusiast will still have a place in the future, just as they can now own cars without 3-point seatbelts, catalytic converters, traction control, ABS, airbags, crumple zones, etc. all of which have been mandated for many decades.

[storus]

EU car manufacturers decided that cheaper-to-make electric cars must be sold as luxury vehicles and failed to achieve economies of scale China did with their underwhelming initial models they kept improving relentlessly every year.

[pjc50]

The corner is turning on this, with e.g. the Renault 5 EV being extremely popular: https://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2026/01/france-full-year-202...

I've test driven one, fun little car, decent provision of some non-touchscreen controls.

Ironically I think Tesla really opened up the EV market at all in the West by starting as a luxury option and working downwards. People don't want to feel they're taking a "hair shirt" option. "EVs are for rich people" has probably sold more cars than "EVs are for poor people" messaging would have.

The VW ID4 is winning the middle of the range family SUV market: https://electrek.co/2025/02/28/volkswagen-id-4-best-selling-...

It's not to my taste that bonnet lines have got higher, SUV style, but it appears to be what the public wants to buy.

[fifticon]

Well, currently US _are_ ICE enthusiasts, lamentable as that may be.

[cung]

The US controls the oil monopoly, where as China controls battery minerals.

The US can’t compete in electric vehicles solely due to lack of control over the complete supply chain.

[baxtr]

Nothing is done ever. Remember when the U.S. deeply feared Japan's rapidly growing economy?

Whenever I read or hear definitive statements like that I heavily bet on the other side.

[joe_mamba]

> Remember when the U.S. deeply feared Japan's rapidly growing economy

They DID fear them and took action to gimp their industry. Read the Plaza Accord and the aftermath to the Japanese economy.

[kazinator]

I'm not a car enthusiast. Unfortunately, I'm also not a phone-on-wheels enthusiast either.

[morshu9001]

Not that many Americans are car enthusiasts. The most popular cars have been basic commuters for decades.

[Slothrop99]

While that is true, the new car market has narrowed to the point where most of the buyers want something overpowered for their money. The most popular cars are actually buying these when they are 10+ years old.

(I śaw recently that the USA market is about 16M cars.. this would have been low figure years ago. But they are barely selling 'basic commuter cars'.)

[criddell]

I guess it depends on how you define car enthusiast.

A lot of Americans spend far more on their vehicle than they need to and so I would classify them as enthusiasts even if they couldn't tell you how many cylinders their engine has.

[PunchyHamster]

It's hard to get basic commuter without overload of tech these days

[amanaplanacanal]

Aren't the most popular "cars" in the US actually SUVs and light trucks?

[AndyMcConachie]

It has everything to do with regulation and almost nothing to do with "car enthusiasts".

[gred]

> Practicality beats enthusiasm for 95% of car use.

About two years ago I rented an electric car for a few days. I felt like I wasted a ton of time finding a charging station, jumping through phone app hoops to get the charging process started, and then waiting for the car to charge. I've stayed away from electric rentals since, even though they're often cheaper.

[flurdy]

Comparing renting a new type of car when you have to figure everything out for 2 days then return it, to owning a car, where you also have to figure everything out, but only for the first days, not the 600 days afterwards, is not really comparable.

Also, when you own a car you charge it at home and work, so you don't really wait for the car to charge very often.

And the next time you rent a car, it will be a bit simpler as you have done it once before. And even quicker/simpler the time after that etc.

[estsauver]

This is the equivalent of setting up a developer environment for charging a car. Once you have a car that's working, and you know how to connect to the app and charge it, almost all these problems go away. If you're in a place that has a lot of public chargers near your destination that you're already going to, then it's even easier, and it just becomes trivial.

That being said, I don't think I would want to rent a car that didn't have a place to charge it or a very easy-to-use fast charger nearby.

[GJim]

> jumping through phone app hoops

The very idea you effectively need a mobile phone to charge your car is mind boggling. The mess of proprietary charging networks and registrations is needless complexity that puts people off hiring (and ownership) of EVs.

[hagbarth]

For rentals I get that. We own 2 EVs and a charger at home. Easiest driving experience ever. We just plug it in.

[cyh555]

Where are you based?

Here is a different narrative: https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1qh5kdg/us_pres...

[tedggh]

“Americans are stuck in ICE engines because they’ve been told they’re “car enthusiasts”

Who told them?

[WorldMaker]

The marketers of the same companies that aren't trying to sell them small, cheap, practical EVs and want everyone to pay for high margin trucks and SUVs.

[ColonelPhantom]

> Meanwhile, European makers are stuck not knowing what to do, make Americans happy or compete with the Chinese.

Huh? This comment sounds extremely America-centric to me. Porsche sells more cars into Europe than North America, despite taking a bigger there (-13-16% vs 0%)!

In general I don't think Porsche is representative of the car market as a whole, given their cars are all premium sports cars to at least some degree.

If you want more representative numbers look at more mass-market manufacturers. Notably, the Volkswagen group has a huge 20%+ market share in the EU, while it is below 5% in the USA. Renault is another example of a strong EU-centric brand and manufacturer with over 10% market share, even over 25% at home in France. Ford is a good example of the opposite, having 13% market share in the USA and only 2-3% here. Stellantis is strong in both markets, but has significant differentiation, even having different brands in both markets.

[catigula]

The technologies were developed in Europe and the USA.