[pfisherman]

Counterpoint: Charlie Brown

A big part of what makes Charlie Brown so endearing is his undying earnestness and optimism in the face of near constant bad luck and disappointment.

He is exactly the lovable loser archetype that this piece says Americans do not dig. Yet the Peanuts comics and cartoons and an American pop cultural institution.

[svat]

OP here (though I don't claim any special insight, as I said).

It would be interesting to consider the differences between the Charlie Brown and Arthur Dent character archetypes.

One difference seems to me exactly the undying earnestness and optimism you mentioned: in a way, Charlie Brown and other American characters like him are simply not touched by failure (even if bad things happen to them), because of their optimism[1]. This makes them lovable: we appreciate them for this quality that we (most of the audience) do not have.

[1]: (or lack of self-awareness, in some other cases mentioned here like Homer Simpson or Peter Griffin)

Arthur Dent, on the other hand, is not gifted with undying optimism. He's constantly moaning about things, starting with his house and his planet being destroyed. This makes him relatable more than lovable: he's not a “lovable loser” (and for the right audience, does not seem a “loser” at all), he is just us, “my kind of guy” — we feel kinship rather than appreciation. We relate to the moaning (if Arthur Dent were to remain unfailingly optimistic, he'd be… different), whereas if Charlie Brown were to lose his optimism or if Homer were to say "D'oh!" to complain about big things in life rather than hurting his thumb or whatever, they would become less of the endearing American institutions they are IMO.

[jimbokun]

I would not say that Charlie Brown is untouched by failure. He does descend to the depths of despair. But some how rises from it to try (and fail) again. This trope is seen best with Lucy pulling away the football every time he goes to kick it. Even though he knows he's failed every time, he talks himself into this time being different.

This does not contradict your overriding point, just adding nuance to the claim he is "simply not touched by failure".

[DoughnutHole]

Homer used to complain about the big things. He tried to kill himself in the third episode due to losing his job. The first 2 seasons are honestly comparatively depressing with some of the heavy topics they touch on.

The Simpsons just leant so far into 1-note characteristics that they became caricatures of themselves - and the term Flanderization was born.

[tclancy]

OP, if you’re still lurking, are you familiar with the Flashman series? I feel like it falls somewhere between the poles here. Either way, would highly recommend it to anyone who likes Adams, history, learning or reprobates.

[jayd16]

In American storytelling, being optimistic overcomes being a failure. In fact, you haven't failed if you still have hope.

Homer Simpson is an idiot, but he doesn't give up. That's endearing enough to hold the protagonist roll.

[okanat]

Yes, that's the part that Americans miss and the previous commenter missed. Charlie Brown is still optimistic.

To dig the English comedy you need to accept that you are or the protagonist is a failure. Your or their life will never significantly improve and they made peace with it. You covet and enjoy small moments of happiness. Happiness is not the winning big but returning home.

[jfengel]

He's also frequently mean. I don't get the love for him.

That is another aspect of humor that Brits and Americans share, but also do very differently.

[1-more]

I wonder if Candide is the prototype of this.

[dentemple]

Also a counterpoint, but from the other side (from British Speculative fiction): Terry Pratchett's Discworld series

These books, written by a British author, are full of characters with strong wants who are roused into situation-defying action.

These books are also best-sellers on _both_ sides of the pond, and often share shelves with Adams.

[Intermernet]

Almost all of Pratchett's greatest characters are highly flawed, morally complex and anti-heroic. This is the main point. This premise includes everyone from Cohen the barbarian, through Vimes, Rincewind, Susan, all the witches, Moist Von Lipwig, all the way to DEATH.

That's one of the main reasons that Terry's work comprehensively bridges the genre gap between "children's books" and "modern philosophy".

[zharknado]

My favorite part about Pratchett is that the characters who are most competent choose to act in the best interest of the less competent “normies” who will never understand or appreciate what they’re doing on their behalf.

[Sharlin]

Pratchett did start the series with a loser protagonist, Rincewind, before pivoting to mostly competent main characters.

[hshdhdhj4444]

99% of references I see to Charlie Brown in the U.S. are as a sucker who never learns.

[tsumnia]

Referencing does not necessarily equate to sentiment though. Similar to seeing Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes peeing on thing decals isn't representative to the admiration to the comic series. The "woop woop woop woop" adult voice is another core element to US culture making fun of authorative figures, but doesn't dismiss them as unneed aspects to life.

[krustyburger]

Those references are to the recurring gag with Lucy and the football.

There’s a lot more to the character than that so I hope 99% is an exaggeration and people are still reading Peanuts and watching the various animated versions. I’m pretty sure they are.

[amiga386]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/culture/article/20241205-how-charles-m...

> Back in 1977, Schulz insisted that the cartoonist's role was mostly to point out problems rather than trying to solve them, but there was one lesson that people could take from his work. He said: "I suppose one of the solutions is, as Charlie Brown, just to keep on trying. He never gives up. And if anybody should give up, he should."

[pinnochio]

I'm enjoying the discussion of Charlie Brown, but while Peanuts is indeed an American pop cultural institution, I never really thought of CB as a 'hero', or even really a protagonist.

While there were cartoons where he's the protagonist (I recently watched A Charlie Brown Christmas), his main medium is the comic strips, and Peanuts generally didn't tell a continuous story (if at all), unlike, say, the superhero comic strips. Instead, they're little vignettes of life, and like most serial comic strips, you're meant to relate to them, get a nugget of wisdom or insight, or a chuckle. We mostly read them as kids who were bored and wanted something like a cartoon until Saturday came around (I realize adults read them, too, but today that seems rare, almost unimaginable to me now). So I'm not sure Charlie Brown really counts as a counterexample, here.

Even the cartoons are not so beloved that they're widely rewatched by adults for their storytelling. People have nostalgia for them because they're something they watched as children. This is the main reason I watched A Charlie Brown Christmas recently, and it's kind of a mostly sad story with a weird resolution. Thanksgiving was practically unwatchable. The Garfield cartoons also do not hold up, imo.

[TacticalCoder]

> I never really thought of CB as a 'hero', or even really a protagonist.

Yup totally.

As an european I always saw, as a kid, Snoopy as the hero who had lots of humor and who was likable. I'd describe Charlie Brown as "invisible" as I barely remember him.

[Intermernet]

CB could be called a "midtagonist", but apparently that would be someone who really likes a particular type of fly-fishing lure.

[Melatonic]

Wouldn't Snoopy be the hero ?

[lenerdenator]

I'd say there are more. Courage the Cowardly Dog? Very much in the lovable loser camp. The Eds from Ed, Edd 'n' Eddy also fit, but I suppose you could say that's a Canadian show.

[freedomben]

Indeed, also a great example of a failing bumbling lovable loser who is frequently considered a hero to many Americans is Homer Simpson. Homer Simpson is a hero to many people in America, especially among the working class. It's not a pure example, because Homer does inadvertently succeed often, but it's almost always because of some crazy luck, not because of some skill or even perseverance.

I largely agree with Douglas Adams assessment of the cultural differences. I think it's pretty clear that he is on to something in a general sense. But there are definitely exceptions in my opinion. It's just way too diverse and way too complex a formula to ratchet down in such a narrow way.

[dyauspitr]

Courage always overcomes the challenge by being brave even though he is scared.

[tokai]

Those shows are also on purpose far out and weird in their style and story telling.

[agumonkey]

Only a European, and one who grew up on US stuff, fondly so, charlie brown feels very low on the exposed and perceived American ethos / values. I saw a few strips and refs .. but that's about it.

[iterateoften]

It’s practically institutionalized at school. Major holidays are marked by watching Charlie Brown in class at a young age.

[educasean]

Charlie Brown does feel more like a symbol of a bygone era rather than an embodiment of the 21st century American psyche

[MrVandemar]

Not just Charlie Brown. The entire cast of the comic.

* Charlie Brown will never talk to the Red Haired Girl. His kites will always be eaten by a tree. He'll never win a baseball game. He'll never kick the football. He has abominably low self-esteem.

* Lucy's infatuation with Schroder is clearly one-sided; likewise Peppermint Patty / Charlie Brown; also Sally/Linus.

* Snoopy will never get the Red Baron, nor enjoy publishing success

* Linus will never stop believing in The Great Pumpkin and is disappointed every year.

Probably loads more. The comic is about losers, and losing.

[lionsdan]

He did eventually win a baseball game. https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/march-30-1993-after...

[cyberrock]

He has more modern versions in Homer Simpson and Peter Griffin. But most of the failures or misfortunes they experience are quite mild or temporary, all things considered.

[yellowstuff]

From Stephen Fry: "You know that scene in Animal House where there’s a fellow playing folk music on the guitar, and John Belushi picks up the guitar and destroys it. And the cinema loves it. Well, the British comedian would want to play the folk singer. We want to play the failure."

Homer and Peter Griffin are idiots but they smash the guitar. Charlie Brown gets his guitar smashed.

[morley]

I think this is a distinction between comedy and non-comedy genres.

There are many examples of protags in American comedies who never get their way -- Party Down, Seinfeld, Always Sunny. Part of this is the need for American sitcoms to maintain the status quo over dozens of episodes / several seasons.

You rarely see Hollywood action heroes who are beset with unrelenting disappointment -- they usually go through hell, but by the end of the third act, achieve some sort of triumph.

A notable counterexample is Sicario, but I wouldn't call it a "Hollywood action movie."

[drdec]

In the first Indiana Jones, the hero makes no positive contribution to the outcome in the end. He is just along for the ride.

To be fair, it requires a little bit of thinking to see. The general audience might see it as success because the outcome was "good" even if it had nothing to do with anything Jones did.

[Der_Einzige]

Charlie Brown is dying in America. Gen Z doesn't know who he is.

[panzagl]

Charlie Brown is actually pretty big right now- my gen z daughter has her entire classroom decked out in him and he's over Target, etc. He fits in with the cozy subculture part of gen z.

[tsunagatta]

Bro literally everyone I know has watched at least the Great Pumpkin and Charlie Brown Christmas. People my age regularly make memes based on the football gag. It’s a cultural icon.

As a general rule actually, I’d say that Gen Z is more likely than may be expected to know about culture from before our time - the internet, after all, is a back catalogue of the best hits of humanity. That’s why spotify thinks we all have a listening age of 70.

[GMoromisato]

Apple just created a new Charlie Brown series and my 6-year-old daughter has already devoured it. I'm trying to get her to say "good grief!" more often.

[Melatonic]

.....Snoopy is literally making a huge comeback with that generation

[throwaway132448]

I don’t know anything about Charlie Brown, but I’m not sure constant bad luck and disappointment capture the spirit of the British humour being discussed, as that can just as easily be used to describe slapstick humour. Perhaps it’s the existential futility/resignation that’s missing? Charlie Brown is a child, so they perhaps have optimistic naïveté instead (such that their failure be viewed with pity instead of kinship, which is really the distinction here).

[baxtr]

Another counterpoint: Columbo

[jsolson]

Columbo is anything but a failure, though, and the audience knows that. His genius is leveraging humility to convince killers that he's a bumbling idiot, while in reality he's onto them from the first encounter.

_Slow Horses_ came up in another thread. I'd argue that Columbo has more in common with Jackson Lamb than with Charlie Brown.

[stronglikedan]

As with everything else, sweeping generalizations about "culture" rarely hold up in the modern world.

[krapp]

Most Americans wouldn't consider Charlie Brown the "hero" of his strip, they would consider him a loser who gets what he deserves, and that's the joke. He isn't cool the way Snoopy is cool.

I think the article is correct that Americans don't feel sympathy for the underdog who doesn't overcome and succeed in the end so much as contempt, due to their inborn sense of entitlement and belief that failure is caused by a lack of moral fortitude and excess of laziness rather than systemic injustice and inequality.

[ewzimm]

Americans are a pretty diverse group, but the most iconic image anyone has of Charlie Brown is perseverance. Lucy sets up a football promising potential success, and despite the fact that she's pulled it away from him at every opportunity, he still tries to kick it anyway.

I think that's a quintessentially American fable. Most people will never achieve great success, but they can experience the thrill of imagining opportunity, and even if they know it's illusory, that moment of faith and effort before failure is the heroic action.

People will do stupid things like bet their life savings on a game or a bad idea, but they feel heroic for having tried regardless, knowing that if enough people keep trying, someone is going to succeed, and they get to experience that success vicariously in some small amount because they tried just as hard as the one who succeeded, experienced the same struggle, and somebody made it, even if it was never going to be them.

[lapcat]

> Most Americans wouldn't consider Charlie Brown the "hero" of his strip, they would consider him a loser who gets what he deserves, and that's the joke.

I don't think you speak for most Americans. That's the cruelest interpretation I've ever heard of Charlie Brown.

[K0balt]

Systemic? It goes way beyond that.

Nature itself ensures that life is short, brutal, violent, and punctuated with horrors. Happiness is a transient state that loses its power if it is present more than part of the time, and joy can only exist in a backdrop of disappointment, or it just becomes another day in the life. We are wired for a life of failure, disappointment, trauma, tragedy, and loss.

That we have wrested a comfortable civilization from these dire circumstances is a great testament to the resolve and resourcefulness of men and women.

We have the great privilege and responsibility of living in this elevated plane, with a long (as biologicaly possible) life lived in relative comfort, and even insulated from the horrors of life by the drapery of civil machinery.

Even so, the only justice in this world is the justice we create ourselves.

The universe owes us nothing, and sometimes collects its debt for the entropy we take from it.

[jimbokun]

Charlie Brown is more like Peter Parker.

He always does the right thing. In spite of always being punished for it.

[bigstrat2003]

When you go out of your way to bash American culture for no reason (with some bonus racism thrown in a few comments down!) it really drags the discussion down. I really wish you wouldn't do that, it's just making the site worse for everyone.

[Vrondi]

I think the fact that most Americans call it "Charlie Brown" when the name of it is actually "Peanuts" proves you wrong.

[JumpCrisscross]

> they would consider him a loser

What about Calvin from Calvin & Hobbes?