I think the wisdom of "just fork it" is that in a project the power lies with the people who do the work (yes, that power is often rented out in exchange for a pay cheque), and in an open source project you have the right to do that work without kowtowing to the authority of other people who did the work before you ("just fork it").
The important point lost in many of these anti-fork posts is that forks usually aren't hostile, and "just fork it" isn't usually a dismissal of people's input - rather, it's an invitation to do the work and to stop looking for permission. Which is really the core value of open source - no need for permission, "just do it". Forks also don't generally split communities because forks live within the community (and good community leaders foster the tolerance of forks).
As an example, I have a fork going of someone else's open source project which I made to meet my client's needs. I've got an email thread going with the project owner, it's all very friendly, and one day the fork might merge back in again (probably in parts). I think this is how most forks work, with the exceptions making big headlines partly because they're juicy gossip but mostly because they are exactly that - exceptions.
Yes exactly. I've forked many a library to meet my own needs. Usually temporary, but not always. The fact that I can do this when I have to means I can use basically any library. The submitted post is written from the perspective of some kind of social network project. People saying "just fork it" in that perspective are clearly missing the bigger picture, hence the post. And the author of that post, didn't acknowledge that FOSS is much more varied than their particular project.
> you have the right to do that work without kowtowing to the authority of other people who did the work before you ("just fork it").
> The important point lost in many of these anti-fork posts is that forks usually aren't hostile, and "just fork it" isn't usually a dismissal of people's input
In my experience, forking a semi-active project can often be viewed as hostile by the maintainers. Some of those maintainers may turn it into a holy war where they try to throw their weight around to push back on the fork. I’ve seen claims of “trying to stealing our project” to mobilizing users of their Discord to warn people to avoid the fork across Reddit and other social media.
It doesn’t always go that way, as you experienced with the project you forked. The situation you described is about as non-threatening as it gets, though, because you forked for a single client and you don’t want to become a maintainer of a new project.
in 30+ years of software development i've never heard "just fork it" or "you're welcome to fork it" used as an encouragement and i've heard it as a dismissal countless times. the article is spot on, and your interpretation of the described real-life situation is a rosy-tinted hypothetical at best.
There's software where the continued existence of a diligent community around that project is necessary (web browsers, OS drivers, security-critical software...), but there's also software where I don't need any of that and I'm grateful for the chance to ignore any community around it and keep using the software anyway. Sometimes ideas just aren't compatible, and that's fine, forking allows us to part amicably.
I wish I could "just fork" most social problems. As FLOSS developers, we have the great luxury of being able to fork, and all we lose is the community, other people's considerations for our preferences. But for social problems, the people are the point, so "forking" alone wouldn't accomplish anything, not to mention physical limitations that make forking e.g. a country impossible.
The subtext here is that there's a difference between someone saying "I don't like this community, I'm going to make my own" and "I don't like this community, I'm going to change it".
Building communities is hard. It's not obvious why someone who wants a community on their terms gets to piggyback on an existing community rather than putting the effort in to make their own.
The point of "just fork it" is that if your ideas are popular, then sustainability shouldn't be a problem.
Every community is the sum of its members. Each person who joins changes it, at least a bit. And each of those members is changing and growing.
When community members have different needs, forking should be a last resort. It's expensive, and it's wasteful unless two different groups have irreconcilable needs. It should only ever be suggested as a last resort, after other options have been exhausted.
However, it's often used as a first resort to shut down criticism and to protect existing power structures. The person who speaks up is, as here, treated as an outsider and an exploiter.
The problem with that premise is that often, projects can be having trouble with sustainability already, so even if you're getting 90% of the people in your fork, that might still be too few.
If 90% of the contributions are by 10 people, if the project is large enough, losing one of them is going to be an enormous additional tax on people unless you can get an additional one to step up.
Hard disagree... sorta. Or rather, I think the author is just looking at it the wrong way.
Most of the time when I see (or give) a "just fork it" response, it's a dismissal of an entitled user who believes that they are owed unpaid labor from a maintainer.
If you're working at some big company and are using open source software, and need a new feature or bug fixed RIGHT NOW, sometimes your best bet is to make an internal fork, implement it yourself, submit it upstream, and continue to maintain your fork until it's accepted upstream and there's a new public release.
I've done this several times in the past, and it's been fine. Sure, it's work to maintain a private fork, but it's usually a hell of a lot less work than implementing all the same functionality from scratch. And I'm getting paid to do that work, so it's fine.
Yes, sometimes "just fork it" is a response given to a random user who doesn't know much about software, is frustrated, and just wants to go about their day. It sucks for them to get a response like that, but really what it is is a brusque education in how the sausage is made.
I think the most rare "just fork it" is due to actual disagreements over project direction from peers. I think this particular case is what this article is really about, but, honestly, it barely warrants discussion. Yes, it's hard to build and sustain a community around a fork. That's life. A maintainer telling you "just fork it" in this instance is implicitly reminding you of this fact, and to consider the implications of striking out in your own. You may choose to do so anyway, and that is the beauty of open source.
That is exactly the point. But it makes sense if you look at it from the other side. When you put in the effort to maintain a project, there have to be boundaries to the social interactions, and when those are reached, "just fork it" is a pressure valve to protect the ones who put in the effort to maintain projects.
Many people think they know how something should be done better, but as a community, we have to protect the ones who are not just talking, but actually maintaining.
A middle ground is "just write a plug-in." What I mean is, I like programs that provide a mechanism for scripting, adding a plug-in, whatever. This allows you to add a feature and perhaps even maintain it in your own repo, without trying to manage the entire project yourself.
Of course it only works for some kinds of changes, and not total structural or cultural revision, but still it seems to be a part of many of the most vibrant open source projects.
I don't really understand these sort of articles. If something is closed source and the original owners quit or decide they move to a subscription model or whatever then you're just screwed no matter what.
When the possibility of forking exist there's at least a chance someone (or you yourself) takes over maintenance. Even if it's just basic 'port it to newer systems' stuff.
Judging from the comments here, I think the article would be improved by discussing actual examples of the "just fork it" debate, because commenters seem to be reading different interpretations and different situations into this expression, and I'm not sure that's how the article author was interpreting it.
So what is the solution? Is the author demanding that people work for them for free to do the sustainability for them? Because that sure sounds like the only way to "resolve" the complaint.
"start treating it as what it often is: a refusal to do the harder social work in #FOSS"
Your ending is missing something... "a refusal to do the harder social work that I want you to do in #FOSS".
But I didn't promise that. Nobody promised that. FOSS is an unparalleled gift of free work and not a single line of it has formed an obligation on my part to help anyone who wants to come along and make it do something different. You are welcome to do that, but I have no obligation on any level to come along and help you "sustain" your own work. No legal obligation, no moral obligation, no community obligation no reciprocal obligation, no Kantian imperative obligation, no obligation whatsoever. If anything, you owe them, not the other way around; any other read of the ethical situation is utterly absurd.
You want "more social work" done, you feel free to do it. Don't be shocked when I'm not interested in helping.
This is just a demand for more free work from people who have already handed you the result of more free work than any other collection of work in human history. It is deeply ungrateful to demand yet more.
It seems that many people lean into the "community" aspect of open source. In real communities there are webs of mutual responsibility. If you use open source to fill the role of community in your life, it makes sense psychologically that you would project moral stakes or obligation onto the maintainers. But this is really not fair to the maintainers who don't view their work that way.
Seems like the author's only talking about the extreme end of the spectrum. Not every fork is attempting to replace the forked project. There are so many other lesser degrees.
You can fork something just for a fun or experimentation. You could have a use case that the project doesn't handle and you aren't ready or interested in contributing that solution (especially if you only need this for a one-off scenario or a short-lived project).
This could also apply to needs that your client or company has, but it's out of scope for the original project, so you make a private fork that you and your team maintain internally. It could be that you DO actually make this public (either initially or eventually) so other people who have the same need can benefit and possibly contribute.
It could even be that, over time, the amount of users of your fork convince the upstream project that there is a need for this use case. Maybe they decide to handle it themselves or maybe your fork merges back in with the upstream. Sometimes projects just can't say yes to certain things because they wouldn't want to/be able to implement, maintain and support it. Seeing that you and others maintain a fork for a non-trivial amount of time can establish the credibility that there is indeed someone who will maintain this.
> ... but in practice it is used to protect informal power. Core teams stay untouched ...
Forking is not the only solution. You can offer 1 billion dollars to each member of the core team to implement your pet feature and it will be implemented. Guido would add braces, Linus would use the backslash, ...
> forking is easy, sustaining is hard. Forking code is cheap, sustaining a living project is not.
This what I wish people would remember before they complain that some feature they can barely verbalize isn't in the codebase. They deserve the "just fork it" slam because they can't imagine that actually, a maintainer's life is already hard enough.
This is now my favorite explanation of how I feel when people default to “just fork it”. I’ve always had trouble expressing how I think that is a symptom of a community problem. One that is endemic in many Linux communities. The next time I want to explain this, I’ll be linking to this post.
Loved this article. The focus on social concerns above technical ones is extremely refreshing, and a necessary step forward our culture needs to take in order to survive with any sort of dignity... The fragility/ephemerality of all kinds of software weighs heavily on me.
Part of the problem is the maintenance cost of a fork just in terms of merging upstream commits.
It won't be long at all before this becomes a huge amount of work for a relatively small divergence of the code. But we could build tools that would make it much less awful!
The article is technically right, but only because the author misses the point.
Yes, one or two persons can't maintain a fork of a giant project for long.
But when you have a project with enough problems that there are thoughts of forking it, whether those are technical problems or social problems, and when that problem is big enough that enough people are thinking about forking it, you already have a new community.
It's not a delusion, it's reality. The Right-To-Fork is a critical part of the proper definition of FLOSS, and key to its success. OP is just saying that maintaining a FOSS project is hard, but who cares? Maintenance is open to forking too: if you think an existing maintainer is doing a bad job of it, you can just take that code wholesale and maintain a version of it on your own.
In other words, forking punishes poorly managed projects by depriving them of some fraction of their developers, users, and mindshare, and that's fascism?
This attitude is cancer to OSS. The social aspect of OSS isn't required from anyone. Maintainers don't owe anyone a thing. The ability to fork and have your own source with the right to use as you wish is literally the defining feature of OSS, otherwise it's just shareware.
But hey, it's telling that the author places stewardship and branding before functionality when talking about reasons to fork.
> Don’t like how it’s run? Do something different. Don’t like the branding? Change it. Got a better idea? Implement it.
Another person that isn't able to make the distinction between developing software and operating platforms and imagining that everyone else is equally befuddled.
The article is also quite wrong, because there are already multiple forks of the original Mastodon code base, which have communities that adopted them. Not at the same magnitude as mastodon.social, but not negligible either.
> The result is lost value, lost history, and lost trust – rinse, repeat, move on.
I hate, hate, hate when someone that's on the side of building things proscribes what the people that actually do build should spend their effort on. I don't see Mr. Campbell building communities, fostering cooperation and gathering funds so that people can better work together instead of apart on things.
This kind of article is an empty, preachy, hot take which misses the point that open source is about communities of builders, not about communities of users, and is uselessly antagonistic against a whole category of people for basically no reward.
~~And that implication at the bottom that forking, as opposed to "collaboration", is close to fascism is a level of being so far up their ass that gets my humors up and my blood boiling.~~ [edit] This juxtaposition between the article about forking and the one about fascism might not be intentional by the author, but it's still an unhealthy implication to leave on.
Ooh, this is gold: "The slogan pretends to be anti-authority, but in practice it is used to protect informal power."
Spot on. I almost never see "just fork it" brought up in a context that acknowledges what that would actually take. It mostly shows up as a way of shutting down discussion, and often has a flavor of victim-blaming to me.
I agree it’s often used to shut down discussion, but most often I’ve seen it when a contributor is losing an argument (their PR isn’t getting merged, or their feature request is rejected, or their bug is marked wont-fix) and they don’t agree.
“Victim blaming” is an odd phrase here. Could you clarify what you mean?
Bottom line: Open Source is a *community* system built around a few flawed assumptions.
These inherent problems are not new or unique or unexpected --- they have all been faced by similar *community* constructs in the past.
The biggest impediments to success are some of the most fundamental, unavoidable characteristics of human nature. And the last ditch effort at maintaining similar systems has often involved forced labor.
Open-Source in its actuality is not a lot about community. It's about making sure other people have everything they need to be able to run and modify a specific piece of software. The fact that, usually communities form around this paradigm is a happy coincidence in my opinion. Additionally, another point on both you and OP are missing the point, is that the communities that are relevant to open-source are not communities of users, but communities of contributors.
And what OP is proposing is actually forced labour. Instead of people being free to work (and fork) to their heart contents, the implication exists that they're losing their time, and instead, should focus on "collaborating" with the existing community. Which frankly nobody in the history of open-source ever denied. Forks are last instance measures, where the steering of a project gets off the rails to a high enough degree to justify such a drastic measure.
jamesbelchamber|1 month ago
The important point lost in many of these anti-fork posts is that forks usually aren't hostile, and "just fork it" isn't usually a dismissal of people's input - rather, it's an invitation to do the work and to stop looking for permission. Which is really the core value of open source - no need for permission, "just do it". Forks also don't generally split communities because forks live within the community (and good community leaders foster the tolerance of forks).
As an example, I have a fork going of someone else's open source project which I made to meet my client's needs. I've got an email thread going with the project owner, it's all very friendly, and one day the fork might merge back in again (probably in parts). I think this is how most forks work, with the exceptions making big headlines partly because they're juicy gossip but mostly because they are exactly that - exceptions.
jeremyjh|1 month ago
Aurornis|1 month ago
> The important point lost in many of these anti-fork posts is that forks usually aren't hostile, and "just fork it" isn't usually a dismissal of people's input
In my experience, forking a semi-active project can often be viewed as hostile by the maintainers. Some of those maintainers may turn it into a holy war where they try to throw their weight around to push back on the fork. I’ve seen claims of “trying to stealing our project” to mobilizing users of their Discord to warn people to avoid the fork across Reddit and other social media.
It doesn’t always go that way, as you experienced with the project you forked. The situation you described is about as non-threatening as it gets, though, because you forked for a single client and you don’t want to become a maintainer of a new project.
boltzmann-brain|1 month ago
kfreds|1 month ago
Maintainers have the freedom to choose whether to accept an idea or not. Users have the freedom to fork or not.
zozbot234|1 month ago
This. You can't even issue a Git pull/merge request without technically forking the project first! It's super common.
andai|1 month ago
A fork doesn't require a schism, but a schism does seem to require a fork.
dvdkon|1 month ago
I wish I could "just fork" most social problems. As FLOSS developers, we have the great luxury of being able to fork, and all we lose is the community, other people's considerations for our preferences. But for social problems, the people are the point, so "forking" alone wouldn't accomplish anything, not to mention physical limitations that make forking e.g. a country impossible.
growse|1 month ago
Building communities is hard. It's not obvious why someone who wants a community on their terms gets to piggyback on an existing community rather than putting the effort in to make their own.
The point of "just fork it" is that if your ideas are popular, then sustainability shouldn't be a problem.
wpietri|1 month ago
When community members have different needs, forking should be a last resort. It's expensive, and it's wasteful unless two different groups have irreconcilable needs. It should only ever be suggested as a last resort, after other options have been exhausted.
However, it's often used as a first resort to shut down criticism and to protect existing power structures. The person who speaks up is, as here, treated as an outsider and an exploiter.
rincebrain|1 month ago
If 90% of the contributions are by 10 people, if the project is large enough, losing one of them is going to be an enormous additional tax on people unless you can get an additional one to step up.
kelnos|1 month ago
Most of the time when I see (or give) a "just fork it" response, it's a dismissal of an entitled user who believes that they are owed unpaid labor from a maintainer.
If you're working at some big company and are using open source software, and need a new feature or bug fixed RIGHT NOW, sometimes your best bet is to make an internal fork, implement it yourself, submit it upstream, and continue to maintain your fork until it's accepted upstream and there's a new public release.
I've done this several times in the past, and it's been fine. Sure, it's work to maintain a private fork, but it's usually a hell of a lot less work than implementing all the same functionality from scratch. And I'm getting paid to do that work, so it's fine.
Yes, sometimes "just fork it" is a response given to a random user who doesn't know much about software, is frustrated, and just wants to go about their day. It sucks for them to get a response like that, but really what it is is a brusque education in how the sausage is made.
I think the most rare "just fork it" is due to actual disagreements over project direction from peers. I think this particular case is what this article is really about, but, honestly, it barely warrants discussion. Yes, it's hard to build and sustain a community around a fork. That's life. A maintainer telling you "just fork it" in this instance is implicitly reminding you of this fact, and to consider the implications of striking out in your own. You may choose to do so anyway, and that is the beauty of open source.
arendtio|1 month ago
That is exactly the point. But it makes sense if you look at it from the other side. When you put in the effort to maintain a project, there have to be boundaries to the social interactions, and when those are reached, "just fork it" is a pressure valve to protect the ones who put in the effort to maintain projects.
Many people think they know how something should be done better, but as a community, we have to protect the ones who are not just talking, but actually maintaining.
analog31|1 month ago
Of course it only works for some kinds of changes, and not total structural or cultural revision, but still it seems to be a part of many of the most vibrant open source projects.
maybewhenthesun|1 month ago
When the possibility of forking exist there's at least a chance someone (or you yourself) takes over maintenance. Even if it's just basic 'port it to newer systems' stuff.
lapcat|1 month ago
boltzmann-brain|1 month ago
jerf|1 month ago
"start treating it as what it often is: a refusal to do the harder social work in #FOSS"
Your ending is missing something... "a refusal to do the harder social work that I want you to do in #FOSS".
But I didn't promise that. Nobody promised that. FOSS is an unparalleled gift of free work and not a single line of it has formed an obligation on my part to help anyone who wants to come along and make it do something different. You are welcome to do that, but I have no obligation on any level to come along and help you "sustain" your own work. No legal obligation, no moral obligation, no community obligation no reciprocal obligation, no Kantian imperative obligation, no obligation whatsoever. If anything, you owe them, not the other way around; any other read of the ethical situation is utterly absurd.
You want "more social work" done, you feel free to do it. Don't be shocked when I'm not interested in helping.
This is just a demand for more free work from people who have already handed you the result of more free work than any other collection of work in human history. It is deeply ungrateful to demand yet more.
acoustics|1 month ago
3D39739091|1 month ago
You can fork something just for a fun or experimentation. You could have a use case that the project doesn't handle and you aren't ready or interested in contributing that solution (especially if you only need this for a one-off scenario or a short-lived project).
This could also apply to needs that your client or company has, but it's out of scope for the original project, so you make a private fork that you and your team maintain internally. It could be that you DO actually make this public (either initially or eventually) so other people who have the same need can benefit and possibly contribute.
It could even be that, over time, the amount of users of your fork convince the upstream project that there is a need for this use case. Maybe they decide to handle it themselves or maybe your fork merges back in with the upstream. Sometimes projects just can't say yes to certain things because they wouldn't want to/be able to implement, maintain and support it. Seeing that you and others maintain a fork for a non-trivial amount of time can establish the credibility that there is indeed someone who will maintain this.
gus_massa|1 month ago
Forking is not the only solution. You can offer 1 billion dollars to each member of the core team to implement your pet feature and it will be implemented. Guido would add braces, Linus would use the backslash, ...
verall|1 month ago
> This isn’t resilience, it’s entropy
> That’s not openness, that’s abdication
> Just fork it” hides power, it doesn’t challenge it
> is not about obedience to maintainers. It’s about stewardship of commons.
> the goal isn’t endless new projects. It’s shared infrastructure
It's Not A Blog Post — It's Moralizing Slop
kmaitreys|1 month ago
i would think humans would start writing in a way that doesn't scream ai generated writing by now, or perhaps the internet is truly dead
QuadmasterXLII|1 month ago
lezojeda|1 month ago
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stared|1 month ago
For example, 3 months ago developers of GZDoom didn't like where it heads, so forked it to UZDoom (vide https://github.com/ZDoom/gzdoom/issues/3395 and https://www.techspot.com/news/109864-gzdoom-developers-split...).
The core part is if you can find enough contributors (from the original repo, or new ones) to make it viable.
troyvit|1 month ago
This what I wish people would remember before they complain that some feature they can barely verbalize isn't in the codebase. They deserve the "just fork it" slam because they can't imagine that actually, a maintainer's life is already hard enough.
hysan|1 month ago
dsego|1 month ago
functionmouse|1 month ago
conartist6|1 month ago
It won't be long at all before this becomes a huge amount of work for a relatively small divergence of the code. But we could build tools that would make it much less awful!
publicdebates|1 month ago
Yes, one or two persons can't maintain a fork of a giant project for long.
But when you have a project with enough problems that there are thoughts of forking it, whether those are technical problems or social problems, and when that problem is big enough that enough people are thinking about forking it, you already have a new community.
mimasama|1 month ago
Isn't that a situation where forking happens as "a last resort when projects become irredeemably captured or hostile" as the article writes?
I think you're the one who missed the point and haven't digested this blog post properly.
zozbot234|1 month ago
unknown|1 month ago
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erelong|1 month ago
unknown|1 month ago
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nacozarina|1 month ago
an inventor has no obligation to fulfill all the side quests observers imagine, that’s why they tell you to fork it
angst over this seems misguided
glroyal|1 month ago
dismalaf|1 month ago
But hey, it's telling that the author places stewardship and branding before functionality when talking about reasons to fork.
> Don’t like how it’s run? Do something different. Don’t like the branding? Change it. Got a better idea? Implement it.
flipped|1 month ago
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dbacar|1 month ago
pshirshov|1 month ago
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mariusor|1 month ago
The article is also quite wrong, because there are already multiple forks of the original Mastodon code base, which have communities that adopted them. Not at the same magnitude as mastodon.social, but not negligible either.
> The result is lost value, lost history, and lost trust – rinse, repeat, move on.
I hate, hate, hate when someone that's on the side of building things proscribes what the people that actually do build should spend their effort on. I don't see Mr. Campbell building communities, fostering cooperation and gathering funds so that people can better work together instead of apart on things.
This kind of article is an empty, preachy, hot take which misses the point that open source is about communities of builders, not about communities of users, and is uselessly antagonistic against a whole category of people for basically no reward.
~~And that implication at the bottom that forking, as opposed to "collaboration", is close to fascism is a level of being so far up their ass that gets my humors up and my blood boiling.~~ [edit] This juxtaposition between the article about forking and the one about fascism might not be intentional by the author, but it's still an unhealthy implication to leave on.
surgical_fire|1 month ago
I mean, we can engage with the ideas, there was intentionality in prompting the AI for this output, after all.
But it is interesting how after you see a bit of AI written text, it becomes super recognizable as afterwards.
wpietri|1 month ago
Spot on. I almost never see "just fork it" brought up in a context that acknowledges what that would actually take. It mostly shows up as a way of shutting down discussion, and often has a flavor of victim-blaming to me.
d1sxeyes|1 month ago
“Victim blaming” is an odd phrase here. Could you clarify what you mean?
jqpabc123|1 month ago
These inherent problems are not new or unique or unexpected --- they have all been faced by similar *community* constructs in the past.
The biggest impediments to success are some of the most fundamental, unavoidable characteristics of human nature. And the last ditch effort at maintaining similar systems has often involved forced labor.
mariusor|1 month ago
And what OP is proposing is actually forced labour. Instead of people being free to work (and fork) to their heart contents, the implication exists that they're losing their time, and instead, should focus on "collaborating" with the existing community. Which frankly nobody in the history of open-source ever denied. Forks are last instance measures, where the steering of a project gets off the rails to a high enough degree to justify such a drastic measure.