top | item 46770956

(no title)

firasd | 1 month ago

I've been analyzing classic "romantic" games using Stockfish with multipv (showing the top 4-5 lines rather than just the best move)

1. Morphy vs. Duke of Brunswick (The Opera Game)

https://lichess.org/study/xAo78qLb/truC6WoM

16. Qb8+.

This is viewed as Morphy doing a stylish Queen sacrifice

But if you look at the MultiPV:

Qb8+* leads to forced mate.

Qc3 or Qb7 drops the advantage significantly.

Qb5 actually allows equality

If he had played anything else, he would have been imprecise. It wasn't a gamble

2. D. Byrne vs. Fischer (Game of the Century)

https://lichess.org/study/UZlSqSLA/Ku9M59je

Fischer plays 17... Be6, leaving his Queen hanging.

Standard narrative: "Fischer offers his Queen for a mating attack!"

Engine reality: 17... Be6 is the correct move. Trying to save the Queen actually loses the advantage.

Byrne taking the Queen (18. Bxb6) was a massive blunder. The engine actually wants Byrne to ignore the Queen and trade off Fischer's Knight on c3. He ends up with a Queen stranded on a3, a total spectator

discuss

order

reassess_blind|1 month ago

Qb8+ is a fairly obvious mate in 2. I don’t think anyone views it as a gamble.

firasd|1 month ago

Right. So I guess that's my quibble with the term sacrifice (shared by Rudolf Spielmann)

But what's interesting to me is the counterfactual like outside of these 3 queen moves he would have lost the entire advantage. So it was like a tactical shot like capturing the golden snitch in Harry Potter

TZubiri|1 month ago

This is a common theme, gambits are such depending on what your level and calculation depth is.

The queen's gambit opening (almost inarguably a gambit as it is part of a well accepted name of a second move), really isn't a gambit in the sense that you can always recover the pawn, however it is a gambit in the sense that you temporarily give it up.

If we were particularly short sighted, no doubt, responding to an early white bishop threat on g5 or b5 with a knight on f6 or c6 would look like a gambit, as we are sacrificing the knight, but lo and behold, we regain the minor piece afterwards with xf6 or xc6!

The distinction would be whether the gambit or sacrifice is solid or refutable. But it is in both cases a sacrifice.

Trufa|1 month ago

Most of the times they mean the amazement of just even considering that move a couple of moves ahead and not discarding that branch.

But yes, a true gambit could be considered something that's objectively bad, but humanly makes sense.