What problem was it solving though? NFC contactless payments is already pretty fast and convenient. I feel like Amazon One Palm was invented to solve for a problem we didn't really have. Thus the failure.
I saw them show up without explanation, but I don't think that's the reason they were unused. If you look at it, it says what it is and to just hold your hand over it to use it, so it's very easy to learn to use and enroll.
I believe the problem was that people simply don't want Amazon to own copies of our finger/hand prints. I intentionally avoided the scanners because of that reason.
This was always doomed to fail, this was almost as dumb an idea as the Facebook Portal. Yeah, the tech is there, and works great, but just like no one wanted Facebook to have a 24/7 camera in their house, I don't think people want to give Amazon their biometric data.
FB Portal was rolled out right after all the media reporting about Cambridge Analytica and how utterly untrustworthy Facebook really was at it's code. A friend of mine was PM on it and I felt terrible for him because as excited as he was, I knew it was always going to fail.
"Do you have chickens in a coop? Hire Chicken Eating Foxes to watch them for you! They won't eat your chickens!" Note: Chickens may be eaten at anytime and will probably be eaten instantly.
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No, apparently eu-west-1 went castors up earlier. I wouldn't be surprised if there was something related to this error.
The site came back around eu-west-1 which, while correlation isn't causation, it does look meaningfully in causation's direction and wiggle an eyebrow suggestively.
This seemed like a bad idea to me from the beginning. Giving personal biometric details to a monster corporation is a nonstarter for both techies and normies.
I agree in theory, but yet I have an iPhone, and Apple is managing my biometrics.
I do not have Clear, or TSA preCheck, etc. but still my biometrics are in the US database.
So, in practice, I am not sure if that is truly a non-starter for "normies" and even some "techies". I already gave up on my face biometrics living in US.
My fingerprints and palmprints have gone through so many biometric studies through multiple colleges and I know they’ve done experiments with copying and making false biometrics from some of their study samples.
This is sad. I loved paying by palm at Whole Foods because it was definitely the fastest way to do things. You just scanned and you were out. Now I've got to slowly type in my phone number for Prime and then tap my watch and select the right credit card (palm scan always used my groceries card). Ah well, perhaps adoption was low.
I just scan the QR code from the Whole Foods app on my phone. Then tap the button to pay with the credit card linked to the account.
For security reasons, it makes sense that if you use your phone number rather than the QR code, of course you don't have the option to utilize the linked card.
Meant to register the palm thing but just never got around to it, wasn't even really sure how/where? That was the main blocker for me -- was never prompted to do it as part of checkout, and didn't want to waste time going over to customer service to ask how.
> Now I've got to slowly type in my phone number for Prime
Haven't the (big) supermarkets in the US adopted the whole "scan and go" thing that lots of countries in Europe have had for a long time? (maybe more than a decade at this point I think)
When I go to the supermarket, right after the entrance, I pick up a scanner, then as I pick stuff, I scan them and pack them. Then when I'm done, you scan a code, give back the scanner, take your stuff and leave. Kind of assumed this was done in the US first and then spread here, but maybe it started here? Not sure.
I tap a piece of plastic in two seconds and not only do I not have to give any tech giants my biometrics, they're not added as middleman in the transaction at all.
Like literally scan your palm? There’s no way that’s on device like a fingerprint reader on your iPhone either. You’re okay with just providing biometric data to a large corp like that. Makes me shudder.
I didn't even know this was available to other businesses -- I've only ever seen it at Whole Foods.
Curious if they're keeping it at Whole Foods or discontinuing the hardware altogether? Can't say I've ever once seen someone actually use it to pay there.
I found the palm payment at Whole Foods to be very convenient for the same reason as others in this thread.
The steps without using Amazon One were
* open the amazon app
* open the checkout thing
* click the QR code button
* click the amazon QR code
* Scan it
* Open Apple Wallet
* Pay
I hope that they will at least add the amazon QR code to apple wallet to make payment faster in store. That or something to make payment (with Amazon Prime link) as fast as with Amazon One even while not continuing Amazon One itself.
I wonder if they could use a NFC tag or something to quickly open the amazon app on your phone to pay or something?
Why do you have all these steps to pay at a supermarket?
When I am here in the UK, I wave my phone over the card reader, it goes "Pling!" and that's my stuff paid for.
Of course, it's different elsewhere.
When I am over in Austria, I wave my phone over the card reader, it goes "Pling!" and that's my stuff paid for, but this time in Euros, at the going exchange rate.
I've always wondered what the play was with these. I can tap my card. I can tap my phone. I never leave home without either of those. I can't use Amazon One online, it's purely a retail thing. I need the thing it's replacing in order to onboard. So... Why?
If this came around on 2010, it would have been a hit. Maybe even 2015. Now, it's simply redundant, or something more nefarious (but I can't imagine how).
Wasn't it obvious? One of Amazon's founding focuses was "make it stupidly easy to pay us." They went overboard to make it easy to buy things. The most obvious is their infamously patented "one click" purchasing, but there were lots of other things. For example, in the early days, they would let you create as many accounts with the same email address as you wanted because "sorry, an account with that email already exists" was an error that might keep you from purchasing.
The Amazon stores were the ultimate physical expression of this ideal. Walk into a store, pick up what you want, wave your hand vaguely at a scanner, leave. If they could have reliably gotten your ID without your involvement at all, they would've done that instead, but the hand scanner was the closest they could come.
There's nothing malicious about it. They just want you to be able to consume as easily as possible with as little friction or opportunities for second thoughts as possible.
They also had this as option to pay at Amazon Fresh, which seemed odd to me. You needed to use your phone to scan the QR code from your phone anyway, and they charged the credit card on file in your Amazon account.
I worked with a few customers on implementing this for some of our products. The customers never went live due to the eventual cost of the individual devices being more than they wanted to incur.
These were neat to use at whole foods but I never saw them anywhere else. I guess Amazon just didn't really have much penetration in payment terminals in general. Maybe a deal with clover or toast could have changed things.
Wonder what stunted adoption of this? High costs, users not liking it b/c privacy, credit cards/tap to pay being a good enough experience already? The handful of times I used this, it was nice.
I think they are going all in on Alexa+ and cutting many other teams (speaking fully as an outsider). The new Echo Dot Max makes controlling your TV/Browsing youtube with natural language really nice (same for exploring Amazon Music - Spotify needs to catch up with this fast). Subscriptions for AI in the living room is what they are first movers of at the moment.
Or they've proven that you can use vein patterns in human skin to positively identify individuals well enough that payment losses are an acceptable risk, and now they plan to just integrate that into their surveillance apparatus everywhere.
Yet again another failed attempt to move to biometric identification linked to a payment instrument thus allowing one not to need to carry that payment method on person.
This is not the worlds first biometric payments failure, as that belongs to PayByTouch, nor will it be the last. Having been deeply involved in the technology systems around the worlds first attempt at PayByTouch I do wonder why the "easy" is not embraced by more? I think I know however as it is likely religious in nature and the beliefs around such things. I can vividly recall being told to hide my employee badge while walking through the crowd of protesters holding signage about "Mark of the beast" and more in my attempts to enter the PayByTouch headquarters which used to reside at 1 Market in San Fran CA many years ago.
Wash, rinse, repeat : Everything old is new again. Just give it time as biometric payments will come around once again for absolute, third times a charm?
I guess the "biometric identification linked to a payment instrument" issue is mostly trust.
Do I trust the entity that identify me using biometrics ?
Do I trust it with my biometric data ?
If I link a payment method, do I trust it with access to my payment details ?
With Amazon Go at WF, I was fine to let Amazon know and store my hand biometrics, and I was fine enough with Amazon know what I purchase at WF, as long as I had something back (loyalty program).
Scaling this though would negatively impact the trust. Maybe I do not want Amazon to know "everything" I purchase everywhere (even though Visa/MC/Amex already know it...)
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I was always surprised there wasn't an uproar about these. A substantial chunk of Americans, i.e. a huge portion of evangelicals, devoutly believe a few things:
* The Bible book of "Revelations" is an accurate prediction of things that will happen exactly as described.
* Revelations predicts that in "the end times", it will become impossible to buy or sell anything without "the mark of the beast" on their forehead or right hand.
* The "mark of the beast" would be administered by the Antichrist.
From Revelations 13:16-17:
"And the second beast required all people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark—the name of the beast or the number of its name."
I grew up in an extremely religious part of the US with a large evangelical population, and I know firsthand that a lot of people believe that all of the above is literally, precisely true. It's exactly what I was taught in Sunday School as a kid. I do not believe this; please don't feel the need to tell me why these ideas are not true because I already agree with you. However, a lot of my family and old neighbors would 100% agree with all of the above statements.
And yet, they seemed to have no problem with buying stuff from Amazon with a palm print, or using Sam Altman's creepy Orb eye scanner thing. I'm genuinely surprised at how little fuss there was about them.
I do not think they store any biometric data, they just compute a key out of the image. So, those keys are useless. Very difficult to create a fake living hand with all the living blood vessels with just a key.
cmiles8|1 month ago
I literally both saw them all over and never actually saw anyone use it.
No clear onboarding pathway, no explanation as to what it did or why use it, no clarity on what happens to the data. Just a box sitting there.
It was as if all the focus was on the tech and nobody bothered to think about how to actually deploy a product to market.
toephu2|1 month ago
burnte|1 month ago
I believe the problem was that people simply don't want Amazon to own copies of our finger/hand prints. I intentionally avoided the scanners because of that reason.
This was always doomed to fail, this was almost as dumb an idea as the Facebook Portal. Yeah, the tech is there, and works great, but just like no one wanted Facebook to have a 24/7 camera in their house, I don't think people want to give Amazon their biometric data.
FB Portal was rolled out right after all the media reporting about Cambridge Analytica and how utterly untrustworthy Facebook really was at it's code. A friend of mine was PM on it and I felt terrible for him because as excited as he was, I knew it was always going to fail.
"Do you have chickens in a coop? Hire Chicken Eating Foxes to watch them for you! They won't eat your chickens!" Note: Chickens may be eaten at anytime and will probably be eaten instantly.
justonceokay|1 month ago
Izikiel43|1 month ago
ColinWright|1 month ago
jsheard|1 month ago
tecleandor|1 month ago
ErroneousBosh|1 month ago
The site came back around eu-west-1 which, while correlation isn't causation, it does look meaningfully in causation's direction and wiggle an eyebrow suggestively.
munchler|1 month ago
llsf|1 month ago
So, in practice, I am not sure if that is truly a non-starter for "normies" and even some "techies". I already gave up on my face biometrics living in US.
burnte|1 month ago
kotaKat|1 month ago
My fingerprints and palmprints have gone through so many biometric studies through multiple colleges and I know they’ve done experiments with copying and making false biometrics from some of their study samples.
What’s not to love?
arjie|1 month ago
crazygringo|1 month ago
For security reasons, it makes sense that if you use your phone number rather than the QR code, of course you don't have the option to utilize the linked card.
Meant to register the palm thing but just never got around to it, wasn't even really sure how/where? That was the main blocker for me -- was never prompted to do it as part of checkout, and didn't want to waste time going over to customer service to ask how.
embedding-shape|1 month ago
Haven't the (big) supermarkets in the US adopted the whole "scan and go" thing that lots of countries in Europe have had for a long time? (maybe more than a decade at this point I think)
When I go to the supermarket, right after the entrance, I pick up a scanner, then as I pick stuff, I scan them and pack them. Then when I'm done, you scan a code, give back the scanner, take your stuff and leave. Kind of assumed this was done in the US first and then spread here, but maybe it started here? Not sure.
antgonzales|1 month ago
Amazon, 2023: please return to your Primehouse for your nightly Primemeal, valued Primecitizen
- krang t. nelson
add-sub-mul-div|1 month ago
i_love_retros|1 month ago
dyauspitr|1 month ago
crazygringo|1 month ago
Curious if they're keeping it at Whole Foods or discontinuing the hardware altogether? Can't say I've ever once seen someone actually use it to pay there.
adastra22|1 month ago
I don’t see the point though. It is a payment solution in search of a problem. It is a nice bonus first party payment solution at Whole Foods though.
brk|1 month ago
kidfiji|1 month ago
Helithumper|1 month ago
The steps without using Amazon One were
* open the amazon app
* open the checkout thing
* click the QR code button
* click the amazon QR code
* Scan it
* Open Apple Wallet
* Pay
I hope that they will at least add the amazon QR code to apple wallet to make payment faster in store. That or something to make payment (with Amazon Prime link) as fast as with Amazon One even while not continuing Amazon One itself.
I wonder if they could use a NFC tag or something to quickly open the amazon app on your phone to pay or something?
davidmurphy|1 month ago
ErroneousBosh|1 month ago
Why do you have all these steps to pay at a supermarket?
When I am here in the UK, I wave my phone over the card reader, it goes "Pling!" and that's my stuff paid for.
Of course, it's different elsewhere.
When I am over in Austria, I wave my phone over the card reader, it goes "Pling!" and that's my stuff paid for, but this time in Euros, at the going exchange rate.
nickorlow|1 month ago
bastawhiz|1 month ago
If this came around on 2010, it would have been a hit. Maybe even 2015. Now, it's simply redundant, or something more nefarious (but I can't imagine how).
CobrastanJorji|1 month ago
The Amazon stores were the ultimate physical expression of this ideal. Walk into a store, pick up what you want, wave your hand vaguely at a scanner, leave. If they could have reliably gotten your ID without your involvement at all, they would've done that instead, but the hand scanner was the closest they could come.
There's nothing malicious about it. They just want you to be able to consume as easily as possible with as little friction or opportunities for second thoughts as possible.
JumpCrisscross|1 month ago
It was convenient in Whole Foods. Prime discount and payment together. Remembering to keep the card on file updated was annoying, though.
Bluecobra|1 month ago
quotemstr|1 month ago
arnmac|29 days ago
dfajgljsldkjag|1 month ago
llsf|1 month ago
I wish Amazon could sell the tech to someone more neutral and have it deployed more broadly.
nickorlow|1 month ago
jasonjei|1 month ago
astrashe2|1 month ago
squokko|1 month ago
unknown|1 month ago
[deleted]
mzajc|1 month ago
wiether|1 month ago
nickorlow|1 month ago
radicalethics|1 month ago
driverdan|1 month ago
stefan_|1 month ago
mmmlinux|1 month ago
throwway120385|1 month ago
bokohut|1 month ago
This is not the worlds first biometric payments failure, as that belongs to PayByTouch, nor will it be the last. Having been deeply involved in the technology systems around the worlds first attempt at PayByTouch I do wonder why the "easy" is not embraced by more? I think I know however as it is likely religious in nature and the beliefs around such things. I can vividly recall being told to hide my employee badge while walking through the crowd of protesters holding signage about "Mark of the beast" and more in my attempts to enter the PayByTouch headquarters which used to reside at 1 Market in San Fran CA many years ago.
Wash, rinse, repeat : Everything old is new again. Just give it time as biometric payments will come around once again for absolute, third times a charm?
llsf|1 month ago
Do I trust the entity that identify me using biometrics ?
Do I trust it with my biometric data ?
If I link a payment method, do I trust it with access to my payment details ?
With Amazon Go at WF, I was fine to let Amazon know and store my hand biometrics, and I was fine enough with Amazon know what I purchase at WF, as long as I had something back (loyalty program).
Scaling this though would negatively impact the trust. Maybe I do not want Amazon to know "everything" I purchase everywhere (even though Visa/MC/Amex already know it...)
wnevets|1 month ago
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46781444#46782289
maest|1 month ago
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> Generated by cloudfront (CloudFront) Request ID: UoLb14OXMP21NeXt-jvgxvRHVY7LFDkZcFJU6hbH1xEsm4qqaOwD6g==
Lol
woah|1 month ago
kstrauser|1 month ago
* The Bible book of "Revelations" is an accurate prediction of things that will happen exactly as described.
* Revelations predicts that in "the end times", it will become impossible to buy or sell anything without "the mark of the beast" on their forehead or right hand.
* The "mark of the beast" would be administered by the Antichrist.
From Revelations 13:16-17:
"And the second beast required all people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark—the name of the beast or the number of its name."
I grew up in an extremely religious part of the US with a large evangelical population, and I know firsthand that a lot of people believe that all of the above is literally, precisely true. It's exactly what I was taught in Sunday School as a kid. I do not believe this; please don't feel the need to tell me why these ideas are not true because I already agree with you. However, a lot of my family and old neighbors would 100% agree with all of the above statements.
And yet, they seemed to have no problem with buying stuff from Amazon with a palm print, or using Sam Altman's creepy Orb eye scanner thing. I'm genuinely surprised at how little fuss there was about them.
gear54rus|1 month ago
46493168|1 month ago
yalogin|1 month ago
llsf|1 month ago
EngineerUSA|1 month ago