top | item 46799304

That's not how email works

325 points| HotGarbage | 1 month ago |danq.me

181 comments

order

jackfranklyn|1 month ago

The http:// thing is what stands out to me. Someone had to actively choose to serve content over http in 2026. Even if the original template was ancient, any security review would have caught that - unless they skipped that step entirely, which honestly tracks.

I work with banking data day to day and the internal systems are often just as rough. CSV exports with inconsistent date formats between the same bank's own products. Transaction descriptions that are random truncated strings with no standardisation. Every bank formats their statements differently and some of them can't even stay consistent between their own account types.

You'd think with the regulatory pressure around data accuracy this stuff would be sorted by now. But the reality is most banks treat their digital infrastructure like legacy plumbing - it works well enough that nobody wants to risk touching it.

zahlman|1 month ago

> But the reality is most banks treat their digital infrastructure like legacy plumbing - it works well enough that nobody wants to risk touching it.

They don't seem to have nearly the same concern for their online banking web UIs, though. Or even the UIs presented on screen at ATMs.

1vuio0pswjnm7|1 month ago

"Someone had to actively choose to serve content over http in 2026."

To be fair, people actively choose to do this every day

For example, millions of people actively choose to do this for HTTP-01 ACME challenges

https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc8555.txt

https://letsencrypt.org/docs/challenge-types/

Certificate authorities also actively choose to do this for

1. TLS Certificates

For example, http://www.ssl.com/repository/SSLcom-RootCA-ECC-384-R1.crt

2. TLS Certifcate Revocation Lists (CRLs)

For example, http://crls.ssl.com/ssl.com-ecc-RootCA.crl

3. Online TLS Certificate Status Protocol (OCSP) responses

For example, http://ocsps.ssl.com

NB. If the statement was more specific, something like, "HSBC chose to use HTTP for return receipts in 2026" then I would have no reason to comment. Instead the statement suggests HTTP is no longer a useful nor appropriate choice for _anyone_. That of course is false, as shown above

xtiansimon|1 month ago

> “Every bank formats their statements differently…”

In my experience with bank data, on the downstream side, banking data is available in the OFX specification, which is a consistent transaction data format. Unfortunately, memo’s do get truncated to different char lengths by different banks, even though the specification allows 255 characters. AMEX, amazingly, switches NAME and MEMO properties. It's a dog breakfast of compliance, but there is a standard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Financial_Exchange

https://www.financialdataexchange.org/FDX/FDX/About/About-FD...

crazygringo|1 month ago

Does HTTP really matter in this particular case though?

HTTPS still typically exchanges the Server Name Identification. So you know somebody is talking to HSBC. And the rest of the URL is just an anonymized tracking ID. So I'm having a hard time seeing what the threat is this particular instance.

sandeepkd|1 month ago

More than likely its a third party service managing the tracking of the email. Serving content over http just requires them to ask HSBC to add a domain entry for their (cName) server. HTTPS would increase the amount of work required.

63stack|1 month ago

So what do you think, what's happening here?

My experience with IT in banks is that this entire "feature" of tracking who's opening/not opening emails must have went through about 50 people, and it must have taken at least a year from the idea forming in someone's head, going through all the administrative bureaucracy, getting approved, developed, tested, and rolled out.

Is it that HSBC has 0 competent people who could have mentioned that "tracking pixels are unreliable, especially in 2025/26"? Or is it that everybody who mentioned this was overruled by middle/upper management because they know better? What about the http:// part? I imagine there must have been a few developers saying we should not be serving anything under http://.

malfist|1 month ago

I ran a team at FAANG where I supported people creating content, including emails, and no matter how many times I explained open tracking was only useful as a trend and not an individual evaluation it just went over people's heads.

Senior leadership wouldn't believe me, kept harassing my team to explain why so and so who said they opened the email didn't have an open event, and why so and so who said they didn't open the email did have an open event.

Authors wouldn't believe me because email open was the highest scoring metric they had. Less than 3% of recipients would land on the page for the publication, but >50% would "open" the email that has a teaser and a call to action to open the webpage. If they had to go off of the click through metrics which are accurate it'd make it sound like they were bad at their job.

So everyone used open rates because it made them feel good. Either that they were writing engaging content, or made them feel like they actually had a handle on who was/was not reading their mail.

No metric would have been better than this metric.

stackskipton|1 month ago

They might have competent people but most tech people working at a bank like are out of fucks to give.

At these massive, unable to go bankrupt companies, you quickly lose all fucks to give. No one cares about opinion of ICs or even direct managers, Senior Management makes the calls and you either execute quietly or replaced with someone who is. When I worked for $MegaUSBank, there was two types of people. Those who realized their "spark" was draining out of them and got a new job after a few years and those who were just "Whatever, I push buttons and get paycheck." and had been there for 15 years.

brendoelfrendo|1 month ago

My take: someone wanted a technical solution for what is a people/process problem. A hypothetical version of events, just one of many possible scenarios of course: 1) Important communications required by law and/or regulation are sent by email. 2) Contacting customers via email is sometimes unreliable. It is unreliable enough that problems caused by missed emails caused enough pain in some exec's silo that they demanded a solution. 3) "Make sure people read their email" isn't really an actionable demand. The business knows this, so they turned to IT. 4) "Make sure people read their email" isn't really technically feasible either, but at this point it's not about making sure that the customer got the message: it's about making sure that the company is covered if a customer complains about missing communications. 5) To that end, a variety of technical solutions are proposed, and everyone knows that they're all bad or incomplete. The tracking pixel is chosen because it's at the intersection of "least bad" and "lowest effort to implement." 6) Around now, someone probably pointed out the issue with serving the content over http, but changing that requires buy-in from another team. It'll go to their product manager as an inject and maybe get prioritized for next PI (it won't, something more important will come up between now and then). 7) The tracking pixel ships. The team that implemented it stresses that this is an incomplete solution and the business really needs to re-evaluate their processes around customer communications. 8) The email tracking pixel solution gets a bullet point on a slide in a presentation given to managers 3-5 levels higher than the devs who made it. No one mentions that the solution is incomplete and requires additional work and investment. No one ever thinks of it again.

dwedge|1 month ago

At least they email him and don't send the stupid "you have an important message, login to see it" email. No idea what those important messages are, I'm sure sometimes they were important

wat10000|1 month ago

I'd guess one of two things. One is a conversation that goes like:

"I want to send letters to everyone who doesn't open our emails."

"We can't really detect that. We could add a tracking pixel, but–"

"Yeah, do that, the tracking pickle thing."

The other is that the "did they open this?" feature was rolled out purely for metrics knowing that it's imprecise, and later on got repurposed for something unsuitable without looking at how the "did this email get opened?" facility actually worked.

m463|1 month ago

I think of the term "state of the practice"

Same thing happens with renting apartments. Slowly but surely, conveniences like apartment-phone-app (to open doors, to access mailboxes) get accepted by people and then they "throw the switch" and make the remaining 3% do it. Or maybe new renters must accept it to move in. And then they can deny access to apartments imeediately, track their residents, match with online activity and more...

raverbashing|1 month ago

I think people are overthinking this, though the discussion about reliability is merited

For every HN technically inclined people you have dozens of other customers who will give any email (thinking it's just writing "John.smith@bt.co.uk" or something) - or worse- and they have to find a way of identifying those customers

antonvs|1 month ago

> Is it that HSBC has 0 competent people who could have ...

In the chain of command for a feature like this, that's quite possible.

> Or is it that everybody who mentioned this was overruled by middle/upper management because they know better?

Or just learned helplessness, they don't bother because they know it's not worth trying.

Nextgrid|1 month ago

> Is it that HSBC has 0 competent people who could have mentioned

Given the salaries, tooling and working conditions for tech people in such companies, why would anyone competent work there?

nickname-derail|1 month ago

NAB Australia does exactly the same thing. Unless I "load remote images" when I receive their emails, they'll start mailing letters saying that they switched me to paper statements as their emails are not going through. It also took me a bit to investigate as their emails were obviously coming through.

awesome_dude|1 month ago

I'm in two minds on this - the bank does need to know that its communications are being received

But, they have no idea if the paper statements are making it to your desk, or if they are getting swiped from the letterbox (I'm in an apartment in Melbourne, and the snail mail is not reliable at all, mail is sometimes delivered to the wrong building, sometimes the wrong address entirely, it's also swiped by miscreants who have nothing better to do, and, in some cases, the pricks set the letter boxes on fire, taking all the mail with it)

rendaw|1 month ago

CapitalOne balance alerts for a low-use credit card - they silently disabled the alerts because "I wasn't reading them". Because I have read notifications disabled and don't load remote resources.

Even if they truly believed I wasn't reading them, disabling them makes no sense to me. They certainly weren't bouncing and I wasn't reporting them as spam.

I dropped CapitalOne after that (not sure I moved to something better though...)

pabs3|1 month ago

If NAB has an option to turn on plain text emails, that might help, since they obviously can't do tracking that way.

anonymousiam|1 month ago

Years ago, I used to get marketing spam emails from Bank of America. In their email, they did not offer a way to opt out from those types of email, so I invalidated the unique email address that I had created just for them. A few months later, I got a snail mail letter like the one Dan got, telling me that emails were being rejected and that I needed to correct my email address. I went through the same sort of nonsensical dialog with them, and they simply would not let me opt out from their marketing emails, so I left it disabled for a few years. Eventually they offered "email preferences", so I re-enabled it.

My wife continues to get spam snail mail from Citi, and they offer no way to opt out. If it was my account, I would switch banks.

Back to the main topic: I think it's pretty stupid of the HSBC IT folks to assume that an email was not read because the tracking pixels were never accessed. Lots of email clients these days do not load images by default.

esskay|1 month ago

All sounds about right for HSBC. They've got some of the worst banking tech in existence. How the heck anyone puts up with their crap is beyond me, I moved away a decade ago but still have a close family member with them and they're forever having issues (genuinely not user error) with the crippled online banking app they've got that looks like something from the early days of app development.

loloquwowndueo|1 month ago

Want them to really listen to you? Cancel your accounts - move to another bank.

This works well as a bluff, but of course you need to be ready to follow through in case they call the bluff. Which if you are, you may as well switch banks for real anyway.

direwolf20|1 month ago

Cancelling costs them no money — banks these days don't make money on customer accounts.

JumpCrisscross|1 month ago

> Want them to really listen to you? Cancel your accounts

Just loop in your regulators. This costs them far more and properly documents the problem for follow-up in case it becomes a pattern. Possibly more annoying than moving accounts. But far more effective (unless you have nine figures with the firm).

zzyzxd|1 month ago

Capital One does this to me as well, but at least they make it clear so I actually understanding what they mean ("You haven't opened an email from us lately...").

It's fine, Capital One. I did open your emails, I just didn't load your shady tracking pixels.

burnte|1 month ago

Ditto, I get them all the time and just ignore them. I actually have a gmail rule that if it sees that phrase it marks it read and deletes it. Them not knowing if I read an email is not a problem I need to solve.

Dwedit|1 month ago

Gmail automatically downloads images ahead of time, so the tracking pixels will have been fetched by Gmail themselves regardless of when the user opens the email.

ChicagoBoy11|1 month ago

I had a demo for some high-school students for an ethics and tech class that successfully demonstrated these with a GMail account, so when this started happening I got very upset lol.

jdhawk|1 month ago

So does Apple's Mail Client. So do most webmail providers. Open signals are generally worthless.

jiveturkey|1 month ago

When Gmail downloads the image it identifies itself as GoogleImageProxy, and will be coming from a GCP/Google ASN.

Similar signal will be there for any email provider or server-side filter that downloads the content for malware inspection.

Pixel trackers are nearly never implemented in-house, because it's basically impossible for you to do your own email. So the tracker is a function of the batteries-included sending email provider. Those guys do that for a living, so they are sophisticated, and filter on the provider download of images.

extraduder_ire|1 month ago

I think gmail adds some heuristics on top of it, like if the same image was included in emails to multiple people.

At least that's what I remember from them announcing the feature. No idea about other providers, and I haven't tested the feature myself.

bmenrigh|1 month ago

Charles Schwab has something very similar. They keep unenrolling me from their paperless thing and then send me a letter every month telling me they unenrolled me because emails aren't being delivered.

But I get their emails just fine. It's their tracking that (intentionally) isn't working.

fooqux|1 month ago

Capital One is the same. I eventually stopped caring; I know these paper mailings are costing them money. Maybe they'll get the point someday.

6ak74rfy|1 month ago

Maybe this is what's happening to me at Fidelity. They keep complaining about my email on custom domain but the Protonmail address works fine. I use different apps for the two because PM doesn't support IMAP, so maybe PM doesn't block the tracking pixels but the other one does.

blackhaz|1 month ago

Can somebody please tell Barclays their 3DS widget is never redirecting back to the seller when transaction has been approved on user's device?

In fact, the sheer amount of systems not working correctly in Britain is astonishing. Feels like the whole country is falling apart.

sd9|1 month ago

Counterpoint: gov.uk is widely regarded as one of the best government websites in the world

amprisewinner|1 month ago

I've been getting similar letters in the mail from Ameriprise for over 15 years. I receive all my account-related emails, but because they can't _track me doing that_ they _assume_ there is some kind of problem.

I've contacted them about this multiple times and always get the same clueless & useless responses that ultimately end with "just disregard the notices" result.

What a waste of resources, at so many levels.

kkfx|1 month ago

Banks have some of the worst IT in the world. Being purely manager-led, with developers completely subservient to the bean counters, the results are terrible.

This is one of the reasons why in 2019 they wrote about their own demise https://web.archive.org/web/20240213185758/https://www.cimb.... against fintech (which is only slightly less archaic) and how cryptos, I don't know which ones, but maybe some yet to be born, will eventually displace them because regardless of their dominant position, the level of poor service and archaic systems is not humanly/socially sustainable for much longer.

Their leadership is mentally incapable of changing. Unfortunately, I fear that most of the population isn't either.

janpeuker|1 month ago

I had the exact same experience with HSBC, with a little twist: I was really impressed by their 100% online signup process with digital government ID which took less than 10 minutes. The process was extremely smooth, except for a very scammy sounding verification phone call. Within 1 day I had a digital card for Apple Pay and within 3 days a courier handed my my physical debit card. I liked the app too. I hadn't consented to marketing mail but HSBC decided to send me some "welcome upsell" anyways, which was returned as I refuse marketing mail. Immediately my card and account were blocked which sent me down the same experience as OP describes here.

VladVladikoff|1 month ago

I send over 1M transactional (user opt in only) emails per day for one of my websites. We have to be pretty strict how we handle bounces and complaints or it can tarnish our sending rep. Sometimes people accidentally flag mail as spam, or maybe their client does, or maybe their server does, and this comes back to us as a complaint. Under the ToS of my email gateway I must stop sending to that address until the user updates their email. There is a lot of assumptions in this post about tracking pixels etc, without any concrete evidence. The truth could be far simpler.

almosthere|1 month ago

This isn't going to get to someone at HSBC. Nothing will change.

  They hired another company to do it.
  The project has been over for 4 years.
  The man who determined the requirements no longer works at HSBC or the other company.
  The coder doesn't even know HSBC is using his code.
It's absolutely useless - humans going into the age of software. It's a death spiral of I don't know's for a hundred miles.

bennyp101|1 month ago

I noticed this a couple of years ago too, I just ignored the letters, continued to receive the emails, and they stopped sending me letters about it /shrug

TheJoeMan|1 month ago

I take bigger offense to the message that says "your emails were returned undelivered", because that is a lie. A bank, sent to a customer, a lie. "Scale" should never be an acceptable excuse but somehow we let it slide when it comes to the internet.

As an aside, at least the email wasn't "a new document is available in your secure portal click here to view it"!

NoGravitas|1 month ago

I am, in fact, shocked that any email clients (including the BigCo webmail clients) load remote images automatically in 2026. I haven't seen a client that didn't require an extra click to open remote resources since like 2020. Even Outlook 365 only seems to do it for emails within the same organization.

barbazoo|1 month ago

> But it gets worse. Because HSBC are using http://, rather than https:// URLs for their tracking pixels, they’re also saying that every time you read an email from them, they’d like everybody on the same network as you to be able to know that you did so, too. If you’re at my house, on my WiFi, and you open an email from HSBC, not only might HSBC know about it, but I might know about it too.

> But we’re in the Darkest Timeline. Tracking pixels have become so endemic that HSBC have clearly come to the opinion that if they can’t track when I open their emails, I must not be receiving their emails. So they wrote me a letter to tell me that my emails have been “returned undelivered” (which seems to be an outright lie).

reaperducer|1 month ago

Tracking pixels have become so endemic that HSBC have clearly come to the opinion that if they can’t track when I open their emails, I must not be receiving their emails. So they wrote me a letter to tell me that my emails have been “returned undelivered”

Tracking pixels are the key of thing that my computer filters out. So I wonder if this explains why I get paper statements for my Apple Card.

Each time one comes in the mail, it has a letter with it stating that Goldman Sachs was unable to contact me at the email address on file, which they show as my Apple ID email address. Which works fine for everyone else in the world, including Apple.

renewiltord|1 month ago

Tracking pixels don’t even work with Gmail because Google fetches them out of band. It doesn’t reveal open rates.

gweinberg|1 month ago

True, but HSBC thinks you read the email, because somebody fetched the tracking pixel, right? The irony is that HSBC and others who use this kind of thing probably aren't in the least interested in when or how many times you open the email. Whoever came up with this idea (probably) really did think it was (just) a pretty good way of figuring out if they have your correct email.

wrs|1 month ago

They do work for the inferred purpose here though, assuming Gmail only downloads them when the email is successfully delivered to the mailbox (and thus the address is valid).

jldugger|1 month ago

> Gmail because Google fetches them out of band. It doesn’t reveal open rates.

"Our open rates have skyrocketed! send more emails!"

philipwhiuk|1 month ago

What do you mean by 'fetches them out of band'?

CGMthrowaway|1 month ago

Same with Apple Mail

Almondsetat|1 month ago

I mean, they still work in some way. If you use tracking pixels to see if an email was read, I agree with you that this break the functionality. But if you just want to see if the email exists, then the fact that google fetches them (and triggers the parametric URL) still tells you something

Analemma_|1 month ago

> I have a credit card with HSBC: you know, the bank with virtue-signalling multiculturalism in their ads.

Was this opening sentence necessary? It is not germane at all to the rest of the article. Ironically, it is itself virtue-signalling (for some definition of virtue), just to a different audience.

CodesInChaos|1 month ago

It doesn't even link to an ad, it links to a weird parody attempt of the ad on the same site as the article. Which makes little sense for people unfamiliar with the original ad it parodies.

arduanika|1 month ago

Not only a distraction, but also fails to distinguish HSBC from pretty much any other bank, so the "the" comes off as crankish and aggrieved.

throwaway902984|1 month ago

My first instinct was to close the article as I didn't want to read a Republican virtue signaling to his audience. I wonder if they were trying to sound Republican?

The article itself is a nice, well interesting, dive into the topic; kinda unfortunate.

swiftcoder|1 month ago

> just to a different audience

And apparently not targeted all that well, since half the comments here think it is a right-wing (anti-multiculturalism) sentiment, and the other half a left-wing (anti-corporate-reputation-laundering) sentiment.

rjsw|1 month ago

People used to bank with Barclays to register their support for Apartheid in South Africa.

bstsb|1 month ago

precisely this. it sort of put me off an otherwise excellent article

dpoloncsak|1 month ago

Isn't this the exact reason we 'verify email address'?

What's the point of that entire handshake then?

SilverElfin|1 month ago

Some may treat these as an inconvenience or annoyance, but I think it’s a sign of rot. And it may run a lot deeper. Unfortunately I feel like most financial institutions have terrible websites and practices in general, so I don’t know if switching will let you avoid problems.

CGMthrowaway|1 month ago

Email is not a core competency of banks. They are actually pretty good at snail mail though.

barbazoo|1 month ago

The rot goes deeper because for every story like this there were hundreds of people involved in making it happen. Some by choice, some less so but rot nontheless.

ivanjermakov|1 month ago

> If you’re at my house, on my WiFi, and you open an email from HSBC, not only might HSBC know about it, but I might know about it too.

To be fair, if someone was on my local network, I would have greater issues to worry about.

bdangubic|1 month ago

> We need to check that you’re receiving our emails. Please click this link to confirm that you are

mate was on a toll till this. I mean after all that amazing write-up we gon be clicking links in emails??!

johnea|1 month ago

It seems the article and most of the comments here are nonsense.

The focus on http versus https in allowing surveillance of fetching the tracking pixel are all but completely irrelevant.

In any case, the domain name of the tracking pixel locations will be resolved through DNS, which is almost always unencrypted. So anyone on the LAN will see the DNS query, revealing the banking URL, in plain text.

The big issue here, which I couldn't find one comment regarding, is that the email client is interpreting HTML.

Use plain text email! Problem solved. At least use a "Simple HTML" or similar mode when viewing email. Where the HTML is rendered, but no links are followed.

believ3|1 month ago

HSBC = The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation ... of China Do you get it now? http:// isn't a bug -- it's by design.

exidy|1 month ago

Surely you know HSBC is a British bank? It was founded in 1865 when Hong Kong was under the control of the British and is headquartered in London.

adastra22|1 month ago

“We need to confirm you are receiving our emails, please click this link” is a phishing setup. That is absolutely not what they should do.

crabmusket|1 month ago

Agreed. What would be a good way for a bank to do this? What about "reply to this email"?

treetalker|1 month ago

Who has two thumbs and (1) will never open an HSBC account because of this and (2) will advise his legal clients to bank elsewhere?

fragmede|1 month ago

What do you tell your illegal clients them?

sparrish|1 month ago

I've heard CapitalOne does the same thing... send paper mail saying their emails aren't being read.

kylehotchkiss|1 month ago

HSBC, truly the pinnacle of Great Banks. Surprised they haven't earned your breakup yet.

mmmlinux|1 month ago

Id be willing to bet the number of people who sign up for ebilling, then screw up their email address is huge. then those people blame the bank for not contacting them to tell them the issue.

yes, its not how email is supposed to work. but people can be really really stupid.

hrimfaxi|1 month ago

The same exact thing would happen to me with interactive brokers.

kayo_20211030|1 month ago

Hang on. The OP gets a paper statement already (there's a picture). If the email address is correct, and OP does nothing, what's the worst that could happen?

If the bank wants to waste time and energy with this nonsense, that's their business. As long as nothing real bad can happen, let them at it.

I don't think I'd be inclined to do the "bank's job" when it affects me not a bit. As sure as eggs is eggs, I wouldn't spend hours on the phone or chatline explaining what their problem is. It seems like it's their problems and not the OP's.

jrs235|1 month ago

Using tracking pixels in emails is like using AI to generate solutions/code. It is not deterministic, is is only probabilistic.

koakuma-chan|1 month ago

> I can understand your frustration, but if the bank has sent the letter, you will have to update the e-mail address.

That's why I fucking hate society. This is everywhere.

drdec|1 month ago

I would have asked, "or what?"

jmclnx|1 month ago

>used to surreptitiously track when somebody reads an email

Not in my email client, mutt. I use Thunderbird once in a great while. For some reason I thought there was an option to stop that and I enabled it. Will need to check the next time I fire up Thunderbird.

crazygringo|1 month ago

I don't see anything wrong with attempting this. A significant number of people mistype/change their e-mail address, and security messages from banks can be important, so anything that catches no-longer-working e-mail addresses is better for everyone involved. And I assume a very small proportion of people try to disable tracking pixels.

But this post is entirely speculation. The author has no evidence they're basing it on tracking pixels. They're literally just guessing.

And I'm dubious that tracking pixels would be a reliable enough signal to be worth it. Doesn't Gmail download images in advance anyways? Plus, I regularly filter predictable emails or just archive them directly from my inbox based on the subject line without opening.

I'd more likely assume they have an e-mail bounce detector that just has a bug in it.

jmholla|1 month ago

> But this post is entirely speculation. The author has no evidence they're basing it on tracking pixels. They're literally just guessing.

They literally admit to this and go on to provide the evidence for their guess:

> I think I can place a solid guess about what went wrong here.

stronglikedan|1 month ago

> I don't see anything wrong with attempting this.

I do, when the result of that attempt is to tell people to change their email addresses unnecessarily. Most people will fall for that.