For those interested in more details and quite mind blowing examples, here is a fascinating interview with Michael Levin (one of the researchers mentioned in the article).
Start at 1:19:11, the stuff before is him talking about biology, but from an intelligence perspective. After this time stamp is his retrospective on his bioelectricity research over the years, showing also examples of how they got a frog embryo to produce eyes, and many more things.
Thanks for sharing this timestamp - Levin's retrospective on bioelectricity research is compelling. What fascinates me most is how his work challenges the gene-centric view of development. The experiments showing bioelectric patterns can override genetic instructions (like inducing eye formation in non-eye tissue) reveal a whole layer of morphogenetic information we're just beginning to understand.
if anyone is interest (note: i'm just a software engineer, not in biomedicine or bioelectricity yet). if there are already long running discord servers then i'd rather join these instead :)
Even since reading about Michael Levin's work, I've been sold that there is a lot going on in terms of bioelectricity outside of neurons. But I haven't seen that much progress. This is one interesting, albeit simple example.
>In this way, bioelectrical flow across cell membranes lets tissues test which cells are the least healthy and mark them for extrusion. “They’re always pushing against each other and bullying each other. And what they’re doing is probing each other for which one’s the weakest link,” Rosenblatt said. “It’s a community effect.”
This fits with my model of how high levels of cooperation succeed in biology. Even in a community as homogeneous as cells you have the risk of defectors (cancer), or just poor members. As such you need a process to continually test your community members.
This is classic Quanta Magazine sensationalism. Here's what the study actually said:
As cells in epithelial tissue get crowded, their membranes start to allow more sodium ions to enter, which makes the cell more electrically positive (depolarization). The cells try to counter this, but cells with insufficient stored energy (ATP) will struggle to do so, and will lose water through their membranes, causing them to shrink, which causes them to signal their neighbors to extrude them.
So there's no "group decisions" being made, no "coordination" between cells using "bioelectricity". Yes, all cells rely on electrical potentials across their membranes for normal functioning, potentials that they have to maintain. That's all the involvement of electricity here.
And the only "decision-making" happening here is within a single cell, but of course cells don't "make decisions', cells are little machines, and part of the mechanism for epithelial cells -- a mechanism that works in part using chemistry and electricity -- includes the cell signaling that it needs to be extruded in certain circumstances, like shrinkage.
How about a chemical causing a flagellum motor to change direction, would you consider that making a decision?
and what if there is indirection, IE light triggers some sensor molecule that then triggers the flagellum motor.
I guess it all comes down to your definition of decision. The most amazing is mitosis, it sure looks like a massive amount of coordination is required.
People can read these articles and go oh cool, but then in the same breath they will say radio frequency electromagnetic fields have no effect on human health.
Electricity is the core of a single cell functionality as well, most biomolecules are on the exact boundary between a conductor and an insulator (and likely switch the state based on other molecules binding, pH, etc). A group of cells electricity is a higher level abstraction of that.
Yes, I think it is. And I am one of these people who are sensitive to electromagnetic fields. Both radio frequency and lower frequency magnetic and electric fields.
No, I’m not running around with a tinfoil hat on thinking that it’s going to kill me, but it does cause me, insomnia, nightmares, and a worsening of my mood disorder.
The problem is since voltage gated ion channels are also associated with mood disorders[1] and are, I believe, how EMF’s effect certain people, then it’s easy to play our sensitivity off as just our mood disorder.
One acquaintance, after years of trying to work out what was wrong and believing EM missions may play a role turned out to have hemochromotosis (genetic disorder characterized by excessive intestinal absorption of dietary iron, resulting in a pathological increase in total body iron) which is fixed by regular blood donations.
I mean you are essentially projecting energy somewhere. Of course it causes something. The availability of a different level of energy changes chemical balances and reactions. It can also trigger some sensors or effectors. It might also just temporarily increase the temperature, but trigger nothing else.
It was known for a long time that some reflexes and responses are mostly spontaneous and don't require decisions from the mind. Such reactions, such as pulling away when touched a hot surface, do require muscle contraction which in turn requires electrical pulses, which indicates the presence of bio electrical charges everywhere. Can some help me understand what exactly is new here. I knew that something is new.
What you are talking about is the functional use of electrical impulses to active muscle. This article is talking about electrical potential as signalling mechanism for cell health, than can be used by a tissue to eject aging or sick cells
Because that is useless? The physical phenomenon is so very, very different in biological systems compared to the metal-wire electricity our electrical devices are based on that they are entirely different things.
For example, charge carriers are electrons in metal wires vs. ions in biological systems. That has huge implications, because moving around ions is a lot harder, and slower.
In a metal wire the electrical field is established from beginning to the end, and that means that the electrons at the end start moving at pretty much the same time as the ones at the other end, no matter how long the wire. That means in a metal wire signals move at a significant fraction of the speed of light in a vacuum, because it is the speed of the electrical field and not that of the charge carriers that matters.
In a biological system electrical fields are tiny! The way the signal propagates in an axon is much more cumbersome, expensive, and slow. Speed of signal propagation is ca. 1/2 to at most 100 m/s (for thick myelinated axons). The signal is propagated by jumping in very tiny steps along the axon's inner surface. (https://youtu.be/tOTYO5WrXFU)
This also makes The Matrix movies' main premise about humans as batteries a little strange: Sure, there's lots of electrical activity, but it is in trillions of very tiny places across nanometer distances. And it is created by moving ions around (at great energy cost).
So anyway, what actually physically happens in an electrical grid of metal wires, or in a biological system are vastly different things. It is not the same "electricity", the only thing they have in common is that electrical fields and charge carriers (but different ones) are involved. But the way it is structured, created, propagated is entirely different in both cases.
When I asked Google out of curiosity what it had to say it showed this:
> Despite their differences, both are fundamentally, at their core, the movement of charged particles driven by electrical potential differences.
This is just not correct! The "the movement of charged particles" part specifically. Again, wires have one electrical field, but in biological systems propagation is entirely different, and slow, and expensive! The methods used to propagate a signal are not even remotely comparable. That's a difference not even a Radio Yerevan joke could make use of.
The article notes that bioelectricity is just referring to electricity not occuring in the heart or brain which has a different specialized name. Simply saying electricity is captures more than the cell types reported on.
The article describes the mechanism in some detail near the end. As I understand it, it's not really "coordination" in the sense that they exchange messages through the electricity.
It's more that every cell has to maintain a voltage difference between the inside and outside ("membrane potential"). A healthy cell does that constantly using "ion pumps" that use chemical energy (ATP) to increase the potential.
If that potential falls below a certain threshold, certain molecular mechanisms (voltage-sensitive ion channels) inside the cell are triggered that lead to ejection.
Interestingly, are also other mechanisms (pressure-sensitive ion channels) that will "intentionally" make it harder for a cell to maintain its potential if it's already weakened or if the surrounding region is very crowded.
As such, I think the effect of current would depend on the way how it would change the voltage differences of the individual cells.
It'll blow their minds when they start researching chi kung and realise it's possible to draw in more energy by breathing and move it round the body. It's also possible to feel some kind of field around the body.
Auras and chakras don't sound so silly now do they.
To me the most interesting part of Levin’s research is that they can convince cells to grow two arms, two tails, etc. and when they cut off the two tails, it grows back with two tails. This is without any genetic changes, so where is the information being stored?
Likewise there’s research that butterflies can be taught to have aversions to certain chemicals or smells in the caterpillar state, and they continue to have those aversions in the butterfly state even though they’re entire body becomes a chemical soup during the chrysalis stage. Where is that behavioral information being stored if not neurons?
I think this is pointing to a discover that’s much more profound than the body using electricity in interesting ways. I think it’s pointing to a new force or new aspect of electromagnetism that hasn’t been discovered yet.
"It'll blow those Chemists' minds when they start researching Alchemy and they realize the incredible power of mercury and lead to rejuvenate the body and lead to an elixir of youth!"
"It'll blow those Astronomers' minds when they start researching Astrology and the powerful effect of being born under auspicious constellations!"
__________
If the ancient guru knowledge is so great, what testable predictions does it offer, where "auras" are a causal mechanism?
In other words, not: "Thou must intake the golden aura of oats and fiber by eating some, to counter the dark brown blockage of your Pu-point." The folk remedy might well solve your constipation, but it wouldn't be evidence for the mythology around it.
[+] [-] jupiterelastica|1 month ago|reply
https://youtu.be/c8iFtaltX-s?t=4751
Start at 1:19:11, the stuff before is him talking about biology, but from an intelligence perspective. After this time stamp is his retrospective on his bioelectricity research over the years, showing also examples of how they got a frog embryo to produce eyes, and many more things.
[+] [-] joel_liu|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] jnpnj|1 month ago|reply
Also, I've been trying to find people to discuss this, so I set up a discord server:
https://discord.gg/gdaSgDgC5y
if anyone is interest (note: i'm just a software engineer, not in biomedicine or bioelectricity yet). if there are already long running discord servers then i'd rather join these instead :)
[+] [-] seanclayton|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] marojejian|1 month ago|reply
>In this way, bioelectrical flow across cell membranes lets tissues test which cells are the least healthy and mark them for extrusion. “They’re always pushing against each other and bullying each other. And what they’re doing is probing each other for which one’s the weakest link,” Rosenblatt said. “It’s a community effect.”
This fits with my model of how high levels of cooperation succeed in biology. Even in a community as homogeneous as cells you have the risk of defectors (cancer), or just poor members. As such you need a process to continually test your community members.
[+] [-] Torkel|1 month ago|reply
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2023/LC/D2LC0...
It enabled healing of diabetic wounds that are otherwise hard to heal.
[+] [-] mojosam|1 month ago|reply
As cells in epithelial tissue get crowded, their membranes start to allow more sodium ions to enter, which makes the cell more electrically positive (depolarization). The cells try to counter this, but cells with insufficient stored energy (ATP) will struggle to do so, and will lose water through their membranes, causing them to shrink, which causes them to signal their neighbors to extrude them.
So there's no "group decisions" being made, no "coordination" between cells using "bioelectricity". Yes, all cells rely on electrical potentials across their membranes for normal functioning, potentials that they have to maintain. That's all the involvement of electricity here.
And the only "decision-making" happening here is within a single cell, but of course cells don't "make decisions', cells are little machines, and part of the mechanism for epithelial cells -- a mechanism that works in part using chemistry and electricity -- includes the cell signaling that it needs to be extruded in certain circumstances, like shrinkage.
[+] [-] aeternum|1 month ago|reply
and what if there is indirection, IE light triggers some sensor molecule that then triggers the flagellum motor.
I guess it all comes down to your definition of decision. The most amazing is mitosis, it sure looks like a massive amount of coordination is required.
[+] [-] unknown|1 month ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] pinnochio|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] Noaidi|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] azan_|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] mjanx123|1 month ago|reply
https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-origin-of-life...
[+] [-] jeffybefffy519|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] Noaidi|1 month ago|reply
No, I’m not running around with a tinfoil hat on thinking that it’s going to kill me, but it does cause me, insomnia, nightmares, and a worsening of my mood disorder.
The problem is since voltage gated ion channels are also associated with mood disorders[1] and are, I believe, how EMF’s effect certain people, then it’s easy to play our sensitivity off as just our mood disorder.
[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3646240/
[+] [-] nandomrumber|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] 1718627440|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] xaedes|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] mbeex|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] zkmon|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] Angostura|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] gus_massa|1 month ago|reply
The "decition" is made by the spinal cord. It's not surprising if you imagine that the brain is an oversized part of the spinal cord.
See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganglion
[+] [-] mannyv|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] FranklinJabar|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] nosianu|1 month ago|reply
For example, charge carriers are electrons in metal wires vs. ions in biological systems. That has huge implications, because moving around ions is a lot harder, and slower.
In a metal wire the electrical field is established from beginning to the end, and that means that the electrons at the end start moving at pretty much the same time as the ones at the other end, no matter how long the wire. That means in a metal wire signals move at a significant fraction of the speed of light in a vacuum, because it is the speed of the electrical field and not that of the charge carriers that matters.
In a biological system electrical fields are tiny! The way the signal propagates in an axon is much more cumbersome, expensive, and slow. Speed of signal propagation is ca. 1/2 to at most 100 m/s (for thick myelinated axons). The signal is propagated by jumping in very tiny steps along the axon's inner surface. (https://youtu.be/tOTYO5WrXFU)
This also makes The Matrix movies' main premise about humans as batteries a little strange: Sure, there's lots of electrical activity, but it is in trillions of very tiny places across nanometer distances. And it is created by moving ions around (at great energy cost).
So anyway, what actually physically happens in an electrical grid of metal wires, or in a biological system are vastly different things. It is not the same "electricity", the only thing they have in common is that electrical fields and charge carriers (but different ones) are involved. But the way it is structured, created, propagated is entirely different in both cases.
When I asked Google out of curiosity what it had to say it showed this:
> Despite their differences, both are fundamentally, at their core, the movement of charged particles driven by electrical potential differences.
This is just not correct! The "the movement of charged particles" part specifically. Again, wires have one electrical field, but in biological systems propagation is entirely different, and slow, and expensive! The methods used to propagate a signal are not even remotely comparable. That's a difference not even a Radio Yerevan joke could make use of.
[+] [-] skyberrys|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] ggm|1 month ago|reply
At least thats ITU regulated frequency bands. I wonder if the ITU regulates biogenic DC signalling frequencies?
[+] [-] simmanian|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] mmooss|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] pyaamb|1 month ago|reply
[+] [-] xg15|1 month ago|reply
It's more that every cell has to maintain a voltage difference between the inside and outside ("membrane potential"). A healthy cell does that constantly using "ion pumps" that use chemical energy (ATP) to increase the potential.
If that potential falls below a certain threshold, certain molecular mechanisms (voltage-sensitive ion channels) inside the cell are triggered that lead to ejection.
Interestingly, are also other mechanisms (pressure-sensitive ion channels) that will "intentionally" make it harder for a cell to maintain its potential if it's already weakened or if the surrounding region is very crowded.
As such, I think the effect of current would depend on the way how it would change the voltage differences of the individual cells.
[+] [-] nprateem|1 month ago|reply
Auras and chakras don't sound so silly now do they.
[+] [-] ben_w|1 month ago|reply
We already know what haemoglobin is thanks
[+] [-] an0malous|1 month ago|reply
To me the most interesting part of Levin’s research is that they can convince cells to grow two arms, two tails, etc. and when they cut off the two tails, it grows back with two tails. This is without any genetic changes, so where is the information being stored?
Likewise there’s research that butterflies can be taught to have aversions to certain chemicals or smells in the caterpillar state, and they continue to have those aversions in the butterfly state even though they’re entire body becomes a chemical soup during the chrysalis stage. Where is that behavioral information being stored if not neurons?
I think this is pointing to a discover that’s much more profound than the body using electricity in interesting ways. I think it’s pointing to a new force or new aspect of electromagnetism that hasn’t been discovered yet.
[+] [-] Terr_|1 month ago|reply
"It'll blow those Astronomers' minds when they start researching Astrology and the powerful effect of being born under auspicious constellations!"
__________
If the ancient guru knowledge is so great, what testable predictions does it offer, where "auras" are a causal mechanism?
In other words, not: "Thou must intake the golden aura of oats and fiber by eating some, to counter the dark brown blockage of your Pu-point." The folk remedy might well solve your constipation, but it wouldn't be evidence for the mythology around it.
[+] [-] renewiltord|1 month ago|reply
[deleted]
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[+] [-] avonmach|1 month ago|reply
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