I cringed when reading the HN comments to this article. Seriously folks, this article isn't about how to get to the fountain of youth. It's also not about quick fixes, so unfortunately if you want to get to the good stuff, you're actually going to have to read the entire 7 pages. Trust me, if you have an open mind, its worth the read.
It's enlightening for me to read accounts about how others live their lives and derive happiness from simple pleasures. Breathing fresh air, enjoying the company of others, eating food that you've grown. This is such a stark contrast to the lifestyle I have lived for the past 28 years. I've worked at software companies for the past 5 years and have spent most of my waking life in front of a computer screen. Even though I am happy, I do admit that I wonder if life is supposed to be more than this. And here we have incredible proof of someone who had broken out of their Comfort Zone, possibly had to give up many of their "luxuries", and changed their life completely.
The point of this story isn't that this man beat cancer and lived to be a centenarian, its that by changing his life he dramatically improved his happiness and began to take advantage of all the things we take for granted.
Arguing anything other than differences in levels of exercise/activity and calorie intake has a large mountain of evidence to overcome. The effects of those two are very large, the effects of everything else comparatively small per decades of animal and longitudinal human studies.
Nonsense about antioxidants in the diet is exactly that: nonsense. The weight of evidence suggests that, if anything, ingested antioxidants have a net negative effect on long term health. But there's money to be made keeping up the lie:
Lastly, beware of pseudo-pop-science that opens with one person's story. People manage to survive cancer without treatment all over the world; one story is not remarkable and tells us nothing. In general the whole blue zones thing has little to no value in any serious consideration of health and longevity: it's about on the same level of credibility as diet fads.
If there's one thing I wish I could do to improve HN, it would be to detect this sort of middlebrow dismissal algorithmically.
Unsophisticated people read an article like this and think: Gosh, I better eat honey for breakfast! People a little more sophisticated think: Hey, this is anecdotal evidence! Yeah, we know that. But is that the most interesting thing one can say about this article? Is it not at least a source of ideas for things to investigate further?
The problem with the middlebrow dismissal is that it's a magnet for upvotes. The "U R a fag"s get downvoted and end up at the bottom of the page where they cause little trouble. But this sort of comment rises to the top. Things have now gotten to the stage where I flinch slightly as I click on the "comments" link, bracing myself for the dismissive comment I know will be waiting for me at the top of the page.
> Arguing anything other than differences in levels of exercise/activity and calorie intake has a large mountain of evidence to overcome. The effects of those two are very large, the effects of everything else comparatively small per decades of animal and longitudinal human studies.
You may have read a different article. As this article noted before even the first of so many page breaks:
"And in Loma Linda, Calif., we identified a population of Seventh-day Adventists in which most of the adherents’ life expectancy exceeded the American average by about a decade."
A full decade, within the same American safety net, is a tremendous difference. Born SDA myself, I can tell you that Loma Linda is not a hotbed of exercise and caloric restriction. (And the benefits are not localized to Loma Linda; the researchers hit upon SDAs there because the concentration in Loma Linda was high enough to show up on zip based data).
You say that anything other than these two makes a difference takes a mountain of evidence to overcome, well, we have that evidence. SDAs are generally just as sedentary and eat just as much as the average non SDA next door.
What SDAs in Loma Linda do differently: don't drink, don't smoke, take 24 hours away from stress each week, and to a large extent, avoid meat with an otherwise normal diet of grains, legumes, vegetables, fruits, and dairy.
"Arguing anything other than differences in levels of exercise/activity and calorie intake has a large mountain of evidence to overcome."
Not accurate. Smoking takes about 10 years off life expectancy, which is thought to be the reason why hispanics have a longer life expectancy than non-hispanic whites in the US. Mental illness takes another 10 - 15 years off life expectancy. Being religious adds a couple years to life expectancy, as does social belongingness in general.
The research I've read seemed conclusive that what you eat is as important or more important as how much. Intuitively it makes sense that giving you body the correct building blocks would make it healthier and that's definitely not just a function of quantity. And from what I've read the science supports it as well. Here's a relevant book about it:
> Nonsense about antioxidants in the diet is exactly that: nonsense.
Well, it is nonsense if you look at it as the sole source of longevity.
But get a diet rich in antioxidants. Add low saturated fat intake. Continuous, low level, healthy exercise. Plenty of fresh vegetables. Low-stress lifestyle. Sense of belonging. All that stuff. Then you reach a tipping point and things start to improve suddenly.
The secret of longevity is probably an all-of-the-above type of thing.
The other problem with blue zones is, they could just be a statistical blip. It's especially bad when you try to identify things like centurions, or spontaneous remission of cancer - things which are rare are the most prone to statistical blips.
And anecdotes about remission can be really dangerous. I've seen people who had spontaneous remission while taking some quack remedy and then parade their story around to convince people not to do evidence-based treatments.
the studies linked to there specifically address antioxidant supplements which you then change into dietary antioxidants as if they are the same thing. They are not. Supplements doing nothing is the norm. It says relatively little about the presence of the same things in a diet. Example: fiber.
> anything other than differences in levels of exercise/activity
I've seen claims that having few friends shows up in mortality worse than than a pack-a-day smoking habit. Of course that's all hand-wavy statistical controls, but then again so is the stuff on exercise and calories.
TIL that even if you study longevity for 10+ years, you're never allowed to share anecdotes (or god forbid, close with a joke) ever again unless you're prepared to be crucified by twentysomething pseudo-experts in Silicon Valley.
I think this is how every expert in a non-CS/IT field feels about HN commentary on their field. 95% of what I read about aviation/aerospace here makes me cringe. It's like hearing my parents talk about computers, but with 10x more self-assurance.
I hate this kind of reporting. I read through the entire first page without the slightest clue as to what the article is actually about -- I'm pretty sure it's not all just for one guy's life story.
But by that point I was tired of reading, and quit.
Cut it out with the pathos and human interest, and get some of the real point in there quicker.
Don't worry, 57 blogs will distill it down to the core 5 points and post them in a bulleted list with a link-bait title by Friday. But writing is much more than 'get to the point as fast as possible'. These kind of stories are far more interesting than the quick summary articles found on most shitty websites. If you don't like the style, then don't click through to the New Yorker, New York Times, etc.
This sort of thinking is actually a large part of the piece.. I'd highly recommend giving it an honest and unaffected read, it's thought-provoking stuff
I completely agree. If I follow an interesting link, read an interesting opening paragraph or two, and then hit a paragraph that completely changes the subject with something like "Paul Steve, a little hobbit of a man, sits before me sipping a glass of warm tea as he gazes out across the morning Texas plains", then I scroll way down to verify the page 1/10 before getting the hell out of Dodge.
I was the complete opposite. I found the story compelling and interesting from the get go. Had they opened with stats from a study, I probably would have stopped there. The personal story hooked me.
I'm not sure why are you saying it's unclear what the article is about, IMO the headline elegantly explains the subject and basic idea, while also giving some notion about the style. I was turned off by the anecdata that the article begins with, but I didn't expect hard science anyway. Having finished it, I find it interesting and well-written. =)
Disclaimer: Greek islander.
Their diet is not that different from many other Greek islands. What I find different is the total lack of stress. It's not that people wake up late. It's that they are worry free. You go to a cafeteria sit and wait and noboby comes. You get up go inside and ask for a coffee and they show you the coffee pot. Or they smile and tell you that you are free to make it yourself. They will probably not move a finger. Then you leave the money on the table and leave. When the article says they wake up late, there are no shops in the morning. They are open when the owner feels like it, and the system works quite well since everybody else knows it... Doors in villages are unlocked. Funerals and marriages of the locals are a special occasion but people don't dress up that much. Everything is serene and simple. Comming from Athens this is very very frustrating at the beggining but I grew to like it. The place is very different from anything else I have seen.
I wonder if this article has some sort of selection bias. After all, communities that have the lowest and highest rates of cancer in the US are small towns of <100 people.
It's easy to find several small towns in the US where people have unusually high longevity. After all, you have many to choose from.
What's more curious is to make a hypothesis around diet and exercise, and then show causality across all similar islands in Greece.
Stories like this are a little dangerous when taken at face value. Americans sometimes get diagnosed with cancer and then have spontaneous remission too. We don't know anything concrete about this guy's case. It's also not a good idea to say that a Mediterranean diet is ideal for anyone that doesn't have a Mediterranean ancestry. Greeks have been eating the same sorts of foods for a long time and are most likely more adapted to them than I would be. My hypothesis is that any society that doesn't drink sugary drinks, eats enough fat (olive oil, goat cheese in this case), doesn't often overeat, and gets plenty of exercise should have a healthy population.
The point that interested me most was how instead of a quick fix or a band-aid approach the whole being healthy is interwoven in their lifestyle. They don't exercise to reduce a few kilos, rather it is impossible for them to not exercise because there isn't any other way of getting around. Same with food, they're not trying to eat healthy like us but the food they know to cook is just healthy.. it's not as a quick-fix to reduce weight.
This point is interesting to me because I was recently reading a book called 8 Weeks To Optimum Health and the author (Andrew Weil i think) mentions that it is good to add a little turmeric to your diet. Now having been lived in India all my life, we all have been eating turmeric all our lives without ever giving much thought to it. It's not something we do to remain healthy, but rather something without which you can't food here. I don't remember not eating it for the last 30 years. Unfortunately, we counter-balance it with fried samosas, etc but still the point to take is when a society as a whole develops good habits it often becomes way too easy for everyone to follow through without missing a day of that (for decades).
I come from a near by island and I had heard some of the facts about people in Ikaria before reading this article (eg that they do not wake up ealy) as well as some more that I did not see mentioned in the article (eg I have been told that they do not lock their stores, they just leave them open in case anyone needs something).
I would really*very much AND strongly like to give a hint to all those who are skeptical about this article that they should consider that a vastly different way of their life can very well exist. You do not HAVE to be a well educated smart hard working entrepreneur to exist on earth. People existed well before that and will do for some more time (if our "civilized" "modern" world does not succeed in destroying our planet.
I would also like to point out that the western world (especially the "civilized" world) has actually failed in the FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN NEEDS, ie food and sleep. Having lived in a place where organic food was the only food I am sick and tired of seeing people eating "healthy" food which in fact is nothing more than a company's new product.
I spend every Saturday afternoon, and most Sunday afternoons, taking 2-3 hour naps. They are great for decompressing and relaxing. I actually enjoy them a lot more than the normal sleeps I get at night. There's something very satisfying about waking up and finding out that it's still the same day!
On a related note, most of my friends who complain about being "stressed out" never spend their weekends actually relaxing. Instead, they rush from one activity/event to another, drive from location to location. Then when the weekend is over they say in dismay, "I can't believe it's Monday already." My guess is that if they spent their weekend being laid back, the weekend would feel a lot longer and they would be re-energized before the next week starts.
Another health factor at work might be the unprocessed nature of the food they
consume: as Trichopoulou observed, because islanders eat greens from their gardens
and fields, they consume fewer pesticides and more nutrients. She estimated that the
Ikarian diet, compared with the standard American diet, might yield up to four
additional years of life expectancy.
Oh boy, 4 years.
Eureka. You've done it. You've found the secret to eternal life.
She also pointed out a preliminary study of Ikarian men between 65 and 100
that included the fact that 80 percent of them claimed to have sex regularly,
and a quarter of that self-reported group said they were doing so with
“good duration” and “achievement.”
If you had asked me the same question in middle school, I would have said that I was having all sorts of sex too.
Although unemployment is high — perhaps as high as 40 percent — most
everyone has access to a family garden and livestock, Parikos told me.
People who work might have several jobs. Someone involved in tourism,
for example, might also be a painter or an
electrician or have a store.
This is a common pattern in the very poor. When you don't have any savings, you can't afford any interruptions in your income stream. Consequently, they're forced to be jacks of all trade, master of none. This makes it impossible to specialize in any one field, and lack of income means they can't make any capital investments.
"When everyone knows everyone else’s business, you get a feeling of
connection and security. The lack of privacy is actually good, because
it puts a check on people who don’t want to be caught or who do
something to embarrass their family."
I'd hate to be homosexual here, or be a member of any kind of minority group.
Anyway, the effect is almost certainly due to a "small study effect" sampling bias. In a tiny population (one island) a handful of exceptions (164 people over 90) massively affects the average lifespan. There's no randomization or blinding at all: observational studies like these are exquisitely sensitive to methodology errors, especially when examining small effects.
I wish someone like Bill Gates would stop doing sisyphean third world do-gooder junk and fund some long term, large controlled studies on humans instead. It seems to me that to do actual science on human health you need space program like money. So instead we get all this observational garbage.
Really interesting to see this here on my first morning after beginning my segmented sleep experiment. I took a quarter pill of melatonin yesterday around 6pm and slept from 6:30 till 8:30, then quickly fell asleep again till 11:30. I then failed to fall asleep at 2:30am after a wonderful mellow productive night programming session, and had to skip the second sleep.
During the morning I found, completely by chance, some articles on a fasting diet from the mark's daily apple blog. And I had been without eating since first falling asleep (and still am), so I eagerly gobbled it up as validation on all those breakfasts I have skipped.
And finally I talked with my roomate about living long as related to these little body hacking experiments.
Maybe it's just my Mediterranean upbringing talking but I think I'll stick with healthy food, good wine, 8 hours sleep, and surrounding myself with people I like.
Everyone seems to be trying to get the quick answer to longevity from this article. The message I took home is that there _is_ no quick answer. No-one really knows why these people live longer.
What they do know is that they lead a completely different kind of lifestyle from us. The whole community is relaxed and randomly happen to have a diet and exercise patterns which may contribute to longevity.
Unfortunately it seems that while we're living busy and stressful lifestyles this kind of longevity is out of reach for us.
While reading the story of this man that cures his cancer without resorting to modern medecine is endearing. I cannot stop thinking about Steve Jobs that tried to cure himself of cancer without modern medicine and of the fatal consequences of his actions.
I heard tell or a similar tale in he Med. where he natural hot springs were a trace radioactive. It was thus hypothesized that this small, consistent dose was partially responsible for the almost zero rate of cancer on the island.
[+] [-] physcab|13 years ago|reply
It's enlightening for me to read accounts about how others live their lives and derive happiness from simple pleasures. Breathing fresh air, enjoying the company of others, eating food that you've grown. This is such a stark contrast to the lifestyle I have lived for the past 28 years. I've worked at software companies for the past 5 years and have spent most of my waking life in front of a computer screen. Even though I am happy, I do admit that I wonder if life is supposed to be more than this. And here we have incredible proof of someone who had broken out of their Comfort Zone, possibly had to give up many of their "luxuries", and changed their life completely.
The point of this story isn't that this man beat cancer and lived to be a centenarian, its that by changing his life he dramatically improved his happiness and began to take advantage of all the things we take for granted.
[+] [-] reasonattlm|13 years ago|reply
Nonsense about antioxidants in the diet is exactly that: nonsense. The weight of evidence suggests that, if anything, ingested antioxidants have a net negative effect on long term health. But there's money to be made keeping up the lie:
http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2012/03/attempting-to-add...
Lastly, beware of pseudo-pop-science that opens with one person's story. People manage to survive cancer without treatment all over the world; one story is not remarkable and tells us nothing. In general the whole blue zones thing has little to no value in any serious consideration of health and longevity: it's about on the same level of credibility as diet fads.
[+] [-] pg|13 years ago|reply
Unsophisticated people read an article like this and think: Gosh, I better eat honey for breakfast! People a little more sophisticated think: Hey, this is anecdotal evidence! Yeah, we know that. But is that the most interesting thing one can say about this article? Is it not at least a source of ideas for things to investigate further?
The problem with the middlebrow dismissal is that it's a magnet for upvotes. The "U R a fag"s get downvoted and end up at the bottom of the page where they cause little trouble. But this sort of comment rises to the top. Things have now gotten to the stage where I flinch slightly as I click on the "comments" link, bracing myself for the dismissive comment I know will be waiting for me at the top of the page.
[+] [-] Terretta|13 years ago|reply
You may have read a different article. As this article noted before even the first of so many page breaks:
"And in Loma Linda, Calif., we identified a population of Seventh-day Adventists in which most of the adherents’ life expectancy exceeded the American average by about a decade."
A full decade, within the same American safety net, is a tremendous difference. Born SDA myself, I can tell you that Loma Linda is not a hotbed of exercise and caloric restriction. (And the benefits are not localized to Loma Linda; the researchers hit upon SDAs there because the concentration in Loma Linda was high enough to show up on zip based data).
You say that anything other than these two makes a difference takes a mountain of evidence to overcome, well, we have that evidence. SDAs are generally just as sedentary and eat just as much as the average non SDA next door.
What SDAs in Loma Linda do differently: don't drink, don't smoke, take 24 hours away from stress each week, and to a large extent, avoid meat with an otherwise normal diet of grains, legumes, vegetables, fruits, and dairy.
[+] [-] Alex3917|13 years ago|reply
Not accurate. Smoking takes about 10 years off life expectancy, which is thought to be the reason why hispanics have a longer life expectancy than non-hispanic whites in the US. Mental illness takes another 10 - 15 years off life expectancy. Being religious adds a couple years to life expectancy, as does social belongingness in general.
[+] [-] pedrocr|13 years ago|reply
http://www.amazon.com/Anticancer-New-Way-Life-Edition/dp/067...
[+] [-] Florin_Andrei|13 years ago|reply
Well, it is nonsense if you look at it as the sole source of longevity.
But get a diet rich in antioxidants. Add low saturated fat intake. Continuous, low level, healthy exercise. Plenty of fresh vegetables. Low-stress lifestyle. Sense of belonging. All that stuff. Then you reach a tipping point and things start to improve suddenly.
The secret of longevity is probably an all-of-the-above type of thing.
[+] [-] wisty|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kolinko|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pmelendez|13 years ago|reply
I just came back from the doctor today because a lesion on my foot and the doctor told "funny things happens on your skin because of stress"
[+] [-] mamoswined|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nazgulnarsil|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rubashov|13 years ago|reply
I've seen claims that having few friends shows up in mortality worse than than a pack-a-day smoking habit. Of course that's all hand-wavy statistical controls, but then again so is the stuff on exercise and calories.
[+] [-] binxbolling|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] starpilot|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] relix|13 years ago|reply
It goes both ways.
[+] [-] kghose|13 years ago|reply
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-...
[+] [-] CWuestefeld|13 years ago|reply
But by that point I was tired of reading, and quit.
Cut it out with the pathos and human interest, and get some of the real point in there quicker.
[+] [-] krschultz|13 years ago|reply
Don't worry, 57 blogs will distill it down to the core 5 points and post them in a bulleted list with a link-bait title by Friday. But writing is much more than 'get to the point as fast as possible'. These kind of stories are far more interesting than the quick summary articles found on most shitty websites. If you don't like the style, then don't click through to the New Yorker, New York Times, etc.
[+] [-] StacyC|13 years ago|reply
Maybe you could slow down and read the part about how slowing down is good for you.
[+] [-] skyebook|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shasta|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ZanderEarth32|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goblin89|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] antman|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ozgune|13 years ago|reply
It's easy to find several small towns in the US where people have unusually high longevity. After all, you have many to choose from.
What's more curious is to make a hypothesis around diet and exercise, and then show causality across all similar islands in Greece.
[+] [-] OldSchool|13 years ago|reply
My vote however does go for: stress level, diet, and enough physical activity. Genetics too but you can't control that.
[+] [-] skittles|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] superasn|13 years ago|reply
This point is interesting to me because I was recently reading a book called 8 Weeks To Optimum Health and the author (Andrew Weil i think) mentions that it is good to add a little turmeric to your diet. Now having been lived in India all my life, we all have been eating turmeric all our lives without ever giving much thought to it. It's not something we do to remain healthy, but rather something without which you can't food here. I don't remember not eating it for the last 30 years. Unfortunately, we counter-balance it with fried samosas, etc but still the point to take is when a society as a whole develops good habits it often becomes way too easy for everyone to follow through without missing a day of that (for decades).
[+] [-] nspattak|13 years ago|reply
I would really*very much AND strongly like to give a hint to all those who are skeptical about this article that they should consider that a vastly different way of their life can very well exist. You do not HAVE to be a well educated smart hard working entrepreneur to exist on earth. People existed well before that and will do for some more time (if our "civilized" "modern" world does not succeed in destroying our planet.
I would also like to point out that the western world (especially the "civilized" world) has actually failed in the FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN NEEDS, ie food and sleep. Having lived in a place where organic food was the only food I am sick and tired of seeing people eating "healthy" food which in fact is nothing more than a company's new product.
[+] [-] JoeAltmaier|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] csl|13 years ago|reply
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_buettner_how_to_live_to_be_100....
[+] [-] enraged_camel|13 years ago|reply
I spend every Saturday afternoon, and most Sunday afternoons, taking 2-3 hour naps. They are great for decompressing and relaxing. I actually enjoy them a lot more than the normal sleeps I get at night. There's something very satisfying about waking up and finding out that it's still the same day!
On a related note, most of my friends who complain about being "stressed out" never spend their weekends actually relaxing. Instead, they rush from one activity/event to another, drive from location to location. Then when the weekend is over they say in dismay, "I can't believe it's Monday already." My guess is that if they spent their weekend being laid back, the weekend would feel a lot longer and they would be re-energized before the next week starts.
[+] [-] sbierwagen|13 years ago|reply
Eureka. You've done it. You've found the secret to eternal life.
If you had asked me the same question in middle school, I would have said that I was having all sorts of sex too. This is a common pattern in the very poor. When you don't have any savings, you can't afford any interruptions in your income stream. Consequently, they're forced to be jacks of all trade, master of none. This makes it impossible to specialize in any one field, and lack of income means they can't make any capital investments. I'd hate to be homosexual here, or be a member of any kind of minority group.Anyway, the effect is almost certainly due to a "small study effect" sampling bias. In a tiny population (one island) a handful of exceptions (164 people over 90) massively affects the average lifespan. There's no randomization or blinding at all: observational studies like these are exquisitely sensitive to methodology errors, especially when examining small effects.
[+] [-] rubashov|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goldfeld|13 years ago|reply
During the morning I found, completely by chance, some articles on a fasting diet from the mark's daily apple blog. And I had been without eating since first falling asleep (and still am), so I eagerly gobbled it up as validation on all those breakfasts I have skipped.
And finally I talked with my roomate about living long as related to these little body hacking experiments.
[+] [-] arbuge|13 years ago|reply
Maybe it's just my Mediterranean upbringing talking but I think I'll stick with healthy food, good wine, 8 hours sleep, and surrounding myself with people I like.
[+] [-] bagosm|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] viggity|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fghh45sdfhr3|13 years ago|reply
2. Lots of exercise and healthy food and many friends even for very old people, on average results in a long life.
3. Joke about the guy from the anecdote, apparently all his American doctors died, while he is in his 90s on his little Greek island.
[+] [-] Florin_Andrei|13 years ago|reply
It says: The TLDR lifestyle kills you.
[+] [-] goblin89|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ajays|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] e03179|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zik|13 years ago|reply
What they do know is that they lead a completely different kind of lifestyle from us. The whole community is relaxed and randomly happen to have a diet and exercise patterns which may contribute to longevity.
Unfortunately it seems that while we're living busy and stressful lifestyles this kind of longevity is out of reach for us.
[+] [-] padobson|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] julnepht|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mapster|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wtracy|13 years ago|reply