[munin]

Matrix is an unserious project and the client ecosystem is a train wreck. The server ecosystem is not much better. The Element people, who are kind of the default Matrix people because as far as I can tell are the only people getting paid, will tell you that this is because a bunch of IT integrator companies unjustly profit off of the open source work by selling services to European companies but contributing none back to either Element or other open source Matrix projects.

The first issue I'd like to address is that one: as a small business, I tried to purchase software from Element and was told that I was not large enough to justify their time. Fair enough, I only wanted a 200 seat license and I was willing to pay per seat, but I guess they really want the high value contracts if they have a limited sales team. However, it is a bit much to go from that experience to their justification about the structure of their project. Maybe they should think about taking some sales opportunities that present themselves?

Then there are branding and release decisions around the clients that Element makes. There are two projects in the client space from Element: a client called Element, and a client called Element X. Element X is the newer one. Element (do you see how this is getting confusing yet) is simultaneously at different times an Electron desktop app, a mobile app, and a web app. Element X is becoming all of those things but the feature parity is not even between them. Element supports "legacy" Jitsi for voice and video calling while Element X supports newer Element call - which is different from legacy Element, Element call is a webRTC implementation native to the Matrix ecosystem while the "legacy" Jitsi is a way to send clients a URL for Jitsi calls and have them shell out to another app to actually implement the call. Fair enough. However, the desktop Element X client does not yet support new Element call but the "old" Element client does support both "legacy" Jitsi and new Element call. And the Element X mobile app cannot call the old Element mobile app - but I think the other way around can. Even getting your head around this as an IT person is confusing.

To add insult to injury the new Element X app on mobile is in some ways a downgrade because they integrated the cloud vendor push notification services into the app, so even though you have "sovereign" and "self-hosted" infrastructure you're still, on a good day, leaking meta-data about your chats back through to the people you were trying to decouple yourself from anyway. You can run your own push notification services for this mostly if you want and all your mobile clients are Android but like, why.

Then, there's desktop client usability. During account setup, Element/Matrix makes a big ceremony out of establishing your cryptographic identity. Perfect. And as part of that you write down a 10-ish something word passphrase that is a recovery sequence for said identity. Perfect. Then some network hiccup happens that disturbs the Element client like some kind of prey animal and it spontaneously logs you out. You log back in, but there are no fields or options visible to use that recovery passphrase to restore your cryptographic identity. Your only option is to reset your identity, which makes all prior chats you have had unreadable. That part at least makes sense but why have this recovery story if it is not tested or usable in the app? This is probably an Element thing but in my research I have not found a client that people say is more robust, though at this point I'm open to trying.

It's also possible that the way most people use this is as a web app, which is to be fair more robust. It does seem worse from a security point of view to have one central web server dealing in most of your users plain text, though. At that point, why not use Mattermost? I guess they're even more hostile to their users/customers, for some reason.

Finally, there's the server ecosystem. The thing that is frustrating to me here is the interplay between Synapse, Matrix Authentication Service (MAS), and OIDC. This, as far as I can tell, is all intentionally hostile to drive you into Element's commercial product offering. Which I find especially galling because they won't sell your their commercial offering anyway, so you're going to have to figure it out for yourself. Synapse has some legacy support for OIDC which you are going to need to enable for backwards compatibility. However, for forwards compatibility with Element X, you are going to need MAS. Synapse is a large, mature Python project. MAS is a single Rust binary which is simultaneously a server and CLI to do user management. You'll need both configured against your OIDC provider. Why didn't the new OIDC features just get integrated into Synapse?

I think that a lot of this is an outcome of the fact that Element is very literally in a "the old world is dying and the new world struggles to be born" situation at this time. I do have a lot of sympathy for being in the position of having huge companies - especially companies as annoying as IT outsourcing and integration - make a line of business out of configuring and installing your open source software. However, I have to say, having spent some of my professional life now also configuring and installing this open source software, I understand why those IT outsourcing companies have a moat. If the open source software was easier to install and use, perhaps those companies would have less of a moat. It seems to me that at least some of the story from Element is that if they make the ecosystem harder to use and understand, then people will take their money and the business will survive. However, in my experience, they won't take your money anyway.

[this_user]

I think their main issue is that they seem to have no one who is seriously looking at the Matrix ecosystem from a product perspective. You have all of these pieces of technology in various states of maturity that more or less fit together if you know what you are doing. But there is also a lot of friction and a lot of things breaking on a regular basis etc.

What the project needs is someone who looks at it from a customer perspective and who can direct resources to make sure the entire thing is packaged as one consistent thing that does what the customer needs.

If you install WA or Signal, or if you sign up to Slack, you don't have to wonder which home server you should install and which of a dozen or so available clients you should use and what features are not yet production ready. Instead, it just works.

[Teever]

The lack of attention that you identify is a real issue with the project but the root issue is ultimately a lack of sufficient funding that would enable all these parts to receive the attention that they require.

Funding fixes all these problems and it has to come from big governmental and institutional players in Europe who are motivated by ending their reliance on American companies like Microsoft.

[noirscape]

I think a product focus does exist: Element seems to be a genuine attempt to fully assemble Matrix as one full project. The problem is that it feels like the Element devs are stuck wanting to have their cake and eat it too.

There's some design choices in Matrix that don't really "fit" with what modern messaging infrastructure looks like. (Which to summarize it pretty quickly is a Slack/Discord-esque model, where non-sysadmin users get to fully administer their own spaces, with an expectation for multiple different channels, control over user permissions and user access and so on and so forth.)

Some of these come from the fact that Matrix is pretty blatantly just designed as "what if IRC, but slightly more modern". It's main unit for non-sysadmin moderation is a single channel, with the expectation that one instance of Matrix will never have two channels named #general (as an example). Similarly, it's entirely possible to kick users from a channel... but then have that exact same channel continue independently on a different instance, but under a different label. This makes sense if you look at it as "supercharged IRC", but becomes a complete and utter mess when you factor in things like the encryption between two servers suddenly disagreeing with each other (leading to a bunch of old messages becoming unreadable), content moderation (barely an issue on IRC because message retention is expected to be almost entirely clientside) and so on and so forth.

Element/synapse's people do try to provide for these cases, but you're effectively stuck trying to prod at admin API endpoints, bots to synchronize moderation decisions and they have like 3 different "channel grouping" that's supposed to be their version of the Slack workspace/Discord guild model.

Honestly though, I'm pretty sure that once XMPP gets a proper multi-user multi-channel XEP going (there's one in draft right now which specifically tries to provide workspace-esque support; it's possible to do this already but it's a sysadmin XEP, the proposal aims to give this capability to regular users), it'll just end up blowing Matrix out of the water entirely for most usecases. Unlike Matrix, it's a far more mature protocol that's a lot easier to work with and actually has many different implementations that you can choose from.

[veeti]

> To add insult to injury the new Element X app on mobile is in some ways a downgrade because they integrated the cloud vendor push notification services into the app, so even though you have "sovereign" and "self-hosted" infrastructure you're still, on a good day, leaking meta-data about your chats back through to the people you were trying to decouple yourself from anyway. You can run your own push notification services for this mostly if you want and all your mobile clients are Android but like, why.

Probably because this is literally the only way to make notifications work reliably on mass market Android and iOS devices? It is no different from Signal or any other secure messenger on the market. Decoupling from these platforms is a story for another day.

[secretballot]

The thing about hosting was the same conclusion I drew when I looked into this. I’ve stood up a lot of daemons in my time, and Matrix’s difficulty level is so far outside the norm that… it’s got to be on purpose, right? If it’s not on purpose, man, that’s also worrisome.

[TavsiE9s]

Thank you, I was about to post a response similar to yours sans the "trying to buy licenses" part.

[polski-g]

Yeah they told me to fuck off when I wanted to purchase Element One for server-side administration.