[zsoltkacsandi]

I didn’t mean the Agile Manifesto prescribes individual productivity measurement. I meant what often happens in “agile in the wild”: we end up tracking throughput proxies (story points completed, velocity, number of tickets closed, burndown charts) and treating that as success, while the harder question (“did this deliver user/business value?”) is weakly measured or ignored.

Also, agile isn’t really “removing managers from the picture” so much as shifting management from command-and-control to enabling constraints, coaching, and removing impediments. Even in Scrum, you still have roles with accountability, and teams still need some form of prioritization and product decision-making (otherwise you just get activity without direction).

So yeah: agile ideals don’t say “measure dev output.” But many implementations incentivize output/throughput, and that’s the misconception I was pointing at.

[9rx]

> we end up tracking throughput proxies (story points completed, velocity, number of tickets closed, burndown charts) and treating that as success

That sounds more like scrum or something in that wheelhouse, which isn't agile, but what I earlier called pre-agile. They are associated with agile as they are intended to be used as a temporary transitionary tool. One day up and telling your developers "Good news, developers. We fired all the managers. Go nuts!" obviously would be a recipe for disaster. An organization wanting to adopt agile needs to slowly work into it and prove that the people involved can handle it. Not everyone can.

> Also, agile isn’t really “removing managers from the picture” so much as shifting management from command-and-control to enabling constraints, coaching, and removing impediments.

That's the pre-agile step. You don't get rid of managers immediately, you put them to work stepping in when necessary and helping developers learn how to manage without a guiding hand. "Business people" remain involved in agile. Perhaps you were thinking of that instead? Under agile they aren't managers, though, they are partners who work together with the developers.