[daymanstep]

Are you saying that Israelis are more likely to have kids mainly because Israeli society is more tolerant of kids?

You seem to be supposing a model where most people naturally want kids, but are just discouraged from having kids because...other people might give them a stink eye if their kids run around in a mall.

In my model, people choose to have kids because it's an important life goal for them, and this decision is not very much affected by whether other people might give them a stink eye if their kids run around in a mall.

[alephnerd]

> Are you saying that Israelis are more likely to have kids mainly because Israeli society is more tolerant of kids

Yes.

They are much more tolerant about having kids and making sure to give space to people planning to have kids.

> In my model, people choose to have kids because it's an important life goal for them, and this decision is not very much affected by whether other people might give them a stink eye if their kids run around in a mall.

The more likely you and your peers are to have kids, the more likely you are to live in a society which will accommodate you.

---

Heck, Germany gives significantly more monetary and subsidized childcare benefits than Israel (which gives almost nothing), and Israel remains significantly more expensive than much of Germany, yet secular Israelis continues to sustain a much higher fertility rate than similar Germans.

It is hard to describe how kid unfriendly Western society has become.

[s1artibartfast]

I think it is more than just tolerance and stink eyes.

Some cultures actively celebrate children and families. They center them in social life in an inclusive way. This covers inclusion in social events, institutions, and civic design.

Kids are not only FUN, but interesting, challenging, and rewarding.

I would be very interested in a breakdown of how the American perception changed over time and what the drivers were.

[angiolillo]

> Are you saying that Israelis are more likely to have kids mainly because Israeli society is more tolerant of kids?

Yes, absolutely.

I used to work in a big city where friends, neighbors, and coworkers with young kids had to sacrifice their career trajectory, friends, hobbies, savings, personal space, and more. Most couples we knew had no kids, some had one, a few exceptional folks had two. A few couples we knew even commented that they ended up having fewer children than they were planning to because of the difficulty with the one(s) they had.

Then my partner and I moved near relatives to a small, family-friendly town. Most of our neighbors have two kids, some have three, and a few exceptional folks have four or more. Almost everything here revolves around families -- even my company has family events and taking time to take care of kids is normalized.

True, living here did not change our decision to have kids, but it actually did change how many kids we ended up having.

> In my model, people choose to have kids because it's an important life goal for them, and this decision is not very much affected by whether other people might give them a stink eye if their kids run around in a mall.

That's a plausible model, but my model is that people alter their goals based on what they observe happening to other people who pursue those same goals. If young people see their friends, coworkers, and neighbors struggling due to their decision to have children, it seems reasonable that they would reevaluate how important it is to them.

[steveBK123]

I think in atomic families in the US, more and more people are brought up without really interacting with children much once they are a teen and stop being a child themselves.

What used to be normal teen rights of passage like hanging out with your younger extended family, holding a baby, babysitting the neighbors kids, being a summer camp counselor, helping with youth sports, etc.. are less common.

Teens are busy cramming SATs, doing homework, and polishing up their resume for college.

[alephnerd]

> Teens are busy cramming SATs, doing homework, and polishing up their resume for college

So are Israelis. Getting into the best IDF units is much more difficult and stressful than getting into an Ivy - it's both academic and physical. But if you get into those units, you will be set for life financially.

Otherwise, your just an infantry grunt who wasted a couple years with no discernible skills and facing a future of (best case) working a dead end job that pays $40k a year in a country with a CoL similar to the Bay Area.

This is why immigrating abroad is still somewhat popular amongst non-techie Israelis (Zohran's electronics store [0] still hits somewhat close to home).

[0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSdIAajX_sI

[porridgeraisin]

Yes, this is closer to my take:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44098431