[jbeninger]

I've been through a few cycles of using LLMs and my current usage does scratch the itch. It doesn't feel like I've lost anything. The trick is I'm still programming. I name classes and functions. I define the directory structure. I define the algorithms. By the time I'm prompting an LLM I'm describing how the code will look and it becomes a supercharged autocomplete.

When I go overboard and just tell it "now I want a form that does X", it ends up frustrating, low-quality, and takes as long to fix as if I'd just done it myself.

YMMV, but from what I've seen all the "ai made my whole app" hype isn't trustworthy and is written by people who don't actually know what problems have been introduced until it's too late. Traditional coding practices still reign supreme. We just have a free pair of extra eyes.

[akdev1l]

I also use AI to give me small examples and snippets, this way it works okay for me

However this still takes away from me in the sense that working with people who are using AI to output garbage frustrates me and still negatively impacts the whole craft for me

[saghm]

Having bad coworkers who write sloppy code isn't a new problem, and it's always been a social problem rather than a technical one. There was probably a lot less garbage code back when it all only ran on mainframes because fewer people having access meant that only the best would get the chance, but I still think that opening that up has been a net benefit for the craft as a whole.

[jbeninger]

Hah. I don't work with (coding) people, so thankfully I don't have that problem

[cstever]

Serious question: so what then is the value of using an LLM? Just autocomplete? So you can use natural language? I'm seriously asking. My experience has been frustrating. Had the whole thing designed, the LLM gave me diagrams and code samples, had to tell it 3 times to go ahead and write the files, had to convince it that the files didn't exist so it would actually write them. Then when I went to run it, errors ... in the build file ... the one place there should not have been errors. And it couldn't fix those.

[saghm]

The value is pretty similar to autocomplete in that sometimes it's more efficient than manually typing everything out. Sometimes the time it takes try select the right thing the complete would take longer to type manually, and you do it that way instead, and sometimes what you want isn't even going to be something you can autocomplete at all so you do it manually because of that.

Like autocomplete, it's going to work best if you already know what the end state should be and are just using it as a quicker way of getting there. If you don't already know what you're trying to complete, you might get lucky by just tabbing through to see if you find the right result, or you might spend a bunch of time only to find out that what you wanted isn't coming up for what you've typed/prompted and you're back to needing to figure out how to proceed.

[jbeninger]

I mean, it's not actually autocomplete. But it serves the same role. I know approximately what I want to type, maybe some of the details like argument-order are a bit foggy. When I see the code I recognize it as my own and don't have too much trouble reading it.

But I use LLMs one level higher than autocomplete, at the level of an entire file. My prompts tend to look like "We need a new class to store user pets. Base it on the `person` class but remove Job and add Species. For now, Species is an enum of CAT,DOG,FISH, but we'll probably turn that into a separate table later. Validate the name is just a single word, and indicate that constraint when rendering it. Read Person.js, CODE_CONVENTIONS.md, and DATA_STRUCTURES.md before starting. When complete, read REFACTOR.md"

With the inclusion of code examples and conventions, the agent produces something pretty close to what I'd write myself, particularly when dealing with boilerplate Data or UI structures. Things that share common structure or design philosophy, but not common enough to refactor meaningfully.

I still have to read it through and understand it as if I'd written it myself, but the LLM saves a lot of typing and acts as a second pair of eyes. Codex currently is very defensive. I have to remove some unnecessary guardrails, but it will protect against rare issues I might not have noticed on my first pass.