[albatross79]

I think probably in the past what one might have expected to find is akin to something like a magical material that couldn't be further probed. That would have been satisfying in a sense because it brings a wonder back into it while connecting you to the fundamental "thing".

What we have now is not that, it's still very much a mechanistic explanation where the "magic" is hidden within abstractions that make no sense to anyone, i.e abstract fields with properties but no material realty, instantaneous wave function "collapse", wave-particle duality, virtual particles etc. The reality of these things is glossed over.

But my point is that if that's what we've been driven to, why are we still engaged in this enterprise? We're just receding further into these abstractions. What are we going to find next year or next decade? A better mathematical model to fit the data? The mission has gone from finding out what the universe is made of to finding a better abstract model. Particles aren't real, they're excitations in a field, etc. It's an engineering enterprise now. So we're not going get a satisfying answer, were just going to get better lasers or whatever the next tech is.

[drdeca]

That makes little sense to me. “Can’t be further probed”?

A thing behaves in some way. If you do things, things happen.

One can do certain measurements about how things behave, and then record these measurements.

What would it even mean for a material everything is based in to be magical? If there was some exceptional material that is unlike other things, following different rules, I can understand calling that “magical”. But, the only meaning I can think of for a material underlying everything to be “magical” is that either everyone just, declines to study it, or its behaviors like, depend on the intent of those studying it or something like that.

I also don’t get your statement that “brings a wonder back into it”. Like, do you not experience wonder when contemplating the nature of fundamental fields?

Like, if we set aside the “magical” part, it kinda sounds like your objection is that fields aren’t a substance/material. But, if you just generalize your notion of “material” a bit, why don’t quantum fields satisfy all your requirements? And, if they do, don’t you want to understand how this “magical material” behaves??

You decry these things as “abstractions”, and say that they “make no sense to anyone”. They can certainly be confusing, but they aren’t beyond comprehension, and I don’t see them as any less “material reality”? Macroscopic things just behave differently.

I don’t think I agree with “particles aren’t real” either. Electrons being excitations in the electron field, doesn’t make them “not real” any more than an apple being made of atoms makes it not real, or sound being vibrations in a medium makes sound not real.

Like, buckyballs are clearly “real” (they can act like little cages with something else contained inside), but they also clearly are “particles” like protons are (you can do a double slit experiment with them and get an interference pattern).

Also, I don’t think I’d say the enterprise was ever “What is the universe made of?” so much as “How does the universe work?” ? It is a drive to understand! It is asking “How do initial conditions relate to final conditions?”. The tech is ancillary to this!

[albatross79]

I'm not interested really in how something behaves, that's an accounting or record keeping task. I am interested in why it behaves a certain way, or what it is. Why does the earth go around the sun? We're told it's because of space time curvature. Curvature of what? Where is space time and what it is made of that it has a shape or geometry? There is no ether, space is not made of anything. Yet it has a shape, or at least there is some accounting going on somewhere that keeps everything moving like it's supposed to. Where is that, what's the mechanism? What we have is a mathematical model that fits the data, but doesn't explain anything. Yes, A behaves in a certain way when B is in a certain position relative to A, we can model that and we call that relativity or whatever, but what is the mechanism? That's where the abstraction is. Are we satisfied with modelling an alien system that we can't understand in any other way? To me that's not that interesting, it just leads to getting lost in abstractions. Maybe relativity will be replaced by a more complicated model that covers more edge cases, but that doesn't tell you what it is. It just tells you how it behaves, as you said. It's like if what you thought was your dog meowed and liked to climb trees instead of barking and chasing squirrels. You don't know what it is anymore, it's not a cat it's not a dog, you don't know what it is but you can model it's behavior. That's what you're forced into. The familiarity is gone. Acting like that's some big accomplishment or achievement is a cop out. We found out the universe is not amenable to our knowing it with any familiarity. Is that something to celebrate? No, it's like finding out your parents were androids. So what are we left with, just accounting rules and accounting models. All they'll give us are ways to make better tools.

[squeefers]

science still cannot predict the path of a particle through a double slit. they cannot explain why this is the case. its claimed that the particle bounces of vacuum fluctuations, yet the energy predicted by these fluctuations is way bigger than what we measure.... how is that satisfactory to you?