[reikonomusha]

Three thoughts (in the context of Common Lisp specifically):

- Every day that passes, the gulf between Lisp's tooling and what a typical user expects grows wider. It needs to escape Emacs and SLIME to something that feels complete and polished.

- There needs to be a little bit of a culture shift around Lisp to actually write programs that do things. How many programs can you download via apt or brew that are written in Lisp? They're executables at the end of the day so nothing in principle stops this from happening, but there's just a thread of modern Lisp culture where it's more fun to play around in the REPL and write creative libraries than to ship. (There are notable exceptions of course.)

- I personally like the quirkiness of Common Lisp, but there are so many ways to write it (imperative, functional, etc.), so many ways to structure your programs (one package, package per file, package inferred system, etc.), and so many ways to offer APIs (plain old data and functions, generic function protocols, etc.) that it makes it a combination of confusing and intimidating. I think shifting toward something a little more structured and disciplined like Coalton, while still giving the escape hatches to all of Common Lisp, would help a lot of people "join in" on building new code or building upon existing code.

[vindarel]

New projects are making the newcomer experience easier:

- ICL https://github.com/atgreen/icl/ a full featured REPL in the terminal and the browser.

- JSCL's playground 100% in the browser https://wiki3-ai.github.io/jscl-kernel/ (very new)

- constantly new editor plugins. A new one: Zed https://github.com/etyurkin/zed-cl (all editors, for readers, including VSCode, Pulsar etc: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/editor-support.ht... Those editors appeared in recent years. So, I see a good trend in the ecosystem).

[nocman]

> - Every day that passes, the gulf between Lisp's tooling and what a typical user expects grows wider. It needs to escape Emacs and SLIME to something that feels complete and polished.

Can you give specific examples of "what a typical user expects" that are missing from Emacs-based programming environments (SLIME, and/or others)? I'm not suggesting there aren't any, I'd just like to know your list.

[Pay08]

Better syntax highlighting immediately comes to mind. Maybe code actions/automatic refactoring too.

[reikonomusha]

- Ease of setup and install. Turnkey. Good defaults.

- Non-buffer based workflows.

- Easy access to settings.

- Easy ways to change or switch my compiler.

- Integrated with typical lisp tooling for library, system, and package management. (For example, what Emacs button do I press to set or clear my ASDF compile cache?)

- Better integration of the profiler and debugger. When a Lisp error happens, yet another buffer pops up (breaking the arrangement of all your code windows you set up), this buffer may not even be the only one (but the others are hidden somewhere), and it's not clear what you can even click or expand to see more information (there's a tremendous amount, extremely non-discoverable).

- Good getting started: built in guide for structural editing, REPL workflow, etc.

...and much much more. I say all of this as someone who basically has only used and invested in Emacs for 20 years. I love sharing Emacs with people who like weird technologies and rabbit holes, the real "hacker"-type people. I hate sharing Emacs with people who want to be productive in an hour or so with a Lisp project, because I know within 5 minutes they'll be disappointed, and never get the best of the experience because it's too much uninteresting investment.

I prefer writing Lisp with Emacs+SLIME over anything else. It's extraordinarily powerful, and with enough grit, you can get it to do almost anything you want. But I'm also jealous of people who get to use, say, polished JetBrains products whose goal is to try to give you the best experience possible for your specific programming language.

[0xcafefood]

Agreed. I think Clojure strikes a pretty reasonable balance here. It's opinionated about the programming paradigm, scales back some of the pain that comes from reader macros, and solves some of the bootstrapping problems by compatibility with other JVM languages.

[harperlee]

I love clojure but the points still stand, kind-of.

  - There is Calva for VS Code but the community default is emacs and cider
  - How many programs in apt or brew are written in clojure? I'd concede that the community is great and focused on productivity, but it's so niche that you don't see much work out there made in clojure, and there is also a vestigial lisp sentiment to prefer building your own library from scratch instead of contributing to a standard library, which spreads  the efforts of a small community too much
  - Third one you need to mutate it a little bit: clojure is opinionated instead of having "so many ways", but its opinions, while great, are foreign to most programmers

[reddit_clone]

Well CL is supposedly the programmable programming language. So none of this is surprising..