[libertine]

So once again, the narrative of Russia having no agency...the government, the People, the elites, are all reactive without choice?

It's the narrative that Russia is a victim that invades other sovereign countries because of those countries, not because it's a choice, a continuous wrong choice by the way.

> Also how oligarchs came to power from the late 80s to the late 90s. Russia experienced unhinged free market reforms applied by incompetent politicians and opportunists who managed to sell out the accumulated wealth of the former RSFSR in just a few years.

How's that different or worse from the current regime? In fact, how many Russians died in the wars of the 80s and 90s, and how many Russians have died under this regime? And for what - to try to justify a failed military operation in a country where they're unwanted?

If you don't see neighboring countries suffering, it's because you either don't care or you refuse to look.

> e.g. Ukraine got all its debts forgiven and inherited specialized industries which were subsidized by Russia during soviet times.

Yeah, and Ukraine surrendered its nukes, and look at what's happening. And Russia got funding from USA and the perks of the USSR, with all the contributions from other countries of the union.

> They had 25 years to make something out of it and did basically nothing.

Ukraine did basically nothing?

- They have one of the strongest national identities in Europe; Russia doesn't even come close to them in this regard (remember the world witnessed the Wagner coup).

- They have one of the strongest and most competent armies in the world.

- They will join the European Union and NATO;

That's not bad for a country so young.

[alexejb]

> So once again, the narrative of Russia having no agency...the government, the People, the elites, are all reactive without choice?

No, that's not the narrative. It's you assumption.

> How's that different or worse from the current regime?

The current regime made sure that the oligarchic caste doesn't meddle in politics and applied measures that critical resources, money and industries stay within russian borders and don't get off shored. The nineties were wild in that regard. Ukraine never really managed to get oligarchs under control. Look at Poroshenko, Kolomoyski, Mindich and the people around Ze and his party.

> how many Russians died in the wars of the 80s and 90

By supporting radical islamists, I mean "freedom fighters", in Afghanistan the US made sure to bleed out the soviets - good job. It backfired a few years down the road for them. The first Chechen war began when a bunch of radical islamists started to harass / massacre the russian population in Grozny. Bad decisions, a decimated and demoralized army didn't help to win a war which was also side tracked by arms deals to the chechens by some government officials and yet again oligarchs. It counts as a 'forgotten war' in Russia. Read up on what happened during the time when Chechnya was 'independent' and why it led to the Second Chechen war. Exercise for the reader ;)

> If you don't see neighboring countries suffering, it's because you either don't care or you refuse to look.

Sure man, but it's not Russias fault, is it?

> Yeah, and Ukraine surrendered its nukes, and look at what's happening.

It weren't 'their' nukes. Those were Russian nukes stationed there and the ukrainian state didn't have the means or the expertise to maintain the arsenal anyway.

> They have one of the strongest national identities in Europe

Do you mean the partying people in Kiev, the far right nationalists or the poor bastards getting dragged from the streets to fight in the mud for strips of land which were considered full of 'terrorists' from 2014 on. Or do you mean the ethnic russian population in the eastern part which was bombed constantly during the so called ATO? UA is a multiethnic country, it was held together by a constitution which guaranteed the different groups freedoms of language and culture. This constitution was gradually dismantled after the 2014 coup. Don't be fooled by nafo propaganda.

> remember the world witnessed the Wagner coup

Where's the connection between the mutiny of a war lord and national identity?

> They have one of the strongest and most competent armies in the world.

So does Russia. It comes with the fact that both armies are fighting a peer opponent. I don't think that any army right now, besides UA and RF, has this kind of expertise in modern warfare. (Abducting presidents from third world countries and bombing civilians in the middle east for 20 years has no particular training effect, I suppose.)

> They will join the European Union and NATO

I highly doubt it.

I'm constantly in awe by the power of western propaganda, the bigotry and lack of knowledge and respect from people who consider themselves and their culture as the pinnacle of human civilisation. Speaking as a half Russian, half Ukrainian living in central europe, btw.

EDIT: just skimmed through your comment history, fuck me for wasting my time replying to you. even after some really good explanations and hints by other, capable people, you haven't learned a thing during the last months. Don't bother replying.

[dh2022]

The Chechen Wars did not start because islamists started killing Russian people-it started because Islamists wanted independence from RF.

Russia does not have the strongest army. Blinken summarized it pretty well: Russian Army is not the second strongest in the world, it is the second strongest in Ukraine.

About Ukrainian identity: this type of struggles unite people into a nation.

I do not know you personally, but your writing like a Russian shill.

[wiseowise]

> It weren't 'their' nukes. Those were Russian nukes stationed there and the ukrainian state didn't have the means or the expertise to maintain the arsenal anyway.

Nonsense. That might be the case initially for ICBMs stationed there, but it would be trivial for them to crack tactical nukes and have a bootleg force de frappe. The only reason they fave up nukes is because they’re were pressured by both Russia AND the West. Ignoring the whole economy impact, if anyone could predict full scale Russian invasion.

[mopsi]

  > Speaking as a half Russian, half Ukrainian living in central europe, btw.

Speaking as a standard-issue vatnik, rather, hitting all the traditional made-up grieviances of the national victim narrative that is supposed to legitimize Putin and his buddies robbing the country blind. And as always, the most passionate patriots live abroad.

[libertine]

> No, that's not the narrative. It's you assumption.

No, it's a narrative propagandized and rooted, and your replies just show that.

> The current regime made sure that the oligarchic caste doesn't meddle in politics

The current regime is an oligarchy. No one claims Ukraine was perfect, or didn't have corruption. But their people clearly wanted to change that and be part of the EU.

That's the beauty of democracy, you're not stuck with one guy.

> Exercise for the reader ;)

The true question is why are you avoiding talking about the much larger losses in Ukraine? The only comparison are loses from WW2.

How can you even complain about the rest with an abhorrent amount of casualties Russia is suffering, and causing, and again, for what? I mean, Westerners are complaining about importing labor due to the lack of opportunities... and Russia is importing Indian labor because they're losing their young men in a pointless war with a country that was at peace and posed no threat... All because of bad intel and a miscalculation that should have easily ended in a resignation in any other country.

But somehow, you put the accountability on everyone else. The war could have been stopped on the same day.

> Sure man, but it's not Russias fault, is it?

Isn't? What about Moldova? Georgia? Ukraine? The constant meddling in politics, threats of economic and military action?

> Do you mean the partying people in Kiev

No, I mean the people who in the 90's chose to be an independent state, and refused to welcome occupiers. Remember that in the occupied territories, the Russian regime had to organize demonstrations of support for the invasion? That's how absurd this all is.

> Where's the connection between the mutiny of a war lord and national identity?

Well, the owner of a state-sponsored PMC was marching towards Moscow, and some people were cheering for him, and the rest? Silent, no one seemed to care that much for the coup, everyone was waiting on the sidelines. Does that look like engaged people with their national identity? Where were the protests? The revolt for what was happening?

Ukrainians, even during the war shown their protests against the government.

> Abducting presidents from third world countries and bombing civilians in the middle east for 20 years has no particular training effect, I suppose.

Wait but wasn't Ukraine considered a third-world country, where Russia tried to abduct its president and failed? Are you talking about Russia bombing civilians in Syria?

> I'm constantly in awe by the power of western propaganda, the bigotry and lack of knowledge and respect from people who consider themselves and their culture as the pinnacle of human civilisation.

The "west" is too big and too different for a single propaganda thread - that's just an old soviet thought pattern, that the USA controls everyone. And again, here comes the "russophobia" narrative.

Let that sink in into the "russophobia": No one in Western countries cared about NATO until Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022 (so after Moldova, Georgia, and Ukraine in 2014), and the vast majority didn't even know what the point of it was. Russia was supplying energy to German industry, with prospects of expansion. And China, with the Belt & Road initiative linking China to Europe. These are just a few things that were going on before the biggest strategic blunder in modern Europe - and you refuse to see this. In fact, you choose to think it was the other way around lol